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> Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work

> Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work with / for someone that dresses like that over formal any day of the week.

nobodyandproud 4y ago
Yes. I like t-shirts and jeans and never want to go back to suits and ties but.. When I went to Japan a decade ago, I realized just how informal and slovenly American working attire had become.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    This is true. Though I think many imitate regardless of the tribe/workforce/culture in order to fit in. Look at the schools. It’s informal but there are definitely trends and fashions to follow in order to relate. Just a thought, but the change in attire, then, is to create some formal distance between management and direct reports.
- astrange 4y ago
  Japanese suits/uniforms are often pretty cheap (and look that way) - thus the low end “recruit suit”. They are tailored, but the level of body-fitting they are would be actively unacceptable in the US. By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay. On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    > On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc. I remember some acquaintances running a decent side business buying and then selling vintage American clothes back in Japan (shipping or flying back). This was back in the 1990s so I believe it. (it also brought back some fond memories)
    - thefringthing 4y ago
      When Japanese enthusiasts scoured American thrift stores for the last remaining stock of vintage American denim, it supposedly constituted the largest ever transfer of clothing from the USA to Japan, exceeding even the postwar used clothing charity drives.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    But the point is everyone looks like they’re trying to conform to the dress code. Much better than America, where just when you think it’s hit bottom, people plumb the depths further. (Most recently, by way of hair, tattoos, earrings on men, etc.)
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I have rings in both my ears and sleeve tattoos on both arms. What does that say about me?
      - mc32 4y ago
        I think it means you like teasing people.
      - onetimeusename 4y ago
        that you will live a long life and success is ahead
      - sprkwd 4y ago
        Means you have spent a lot of money on pain.
thefringthing 4y ago
Well, it's only in the context of the radical casualization of menswear since the mid-60s that jeans and a t-shirt can be seen as stylish. When men first started wearing this outfit, it was considered rebellious in part because it was so obviously inappropriate to wear in public. The t-shirt originated as a military undergarment and jeans as mining equipment.

nobodyandproud 4y ago

Yes. I like t-shirts and jeans and never want to go back to suits and ties but.. When I went to Japan a decade ago, I realized just how informal and slovenly American working attire had become.

cercatrova 4y ago
Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  This is true. Though I think many imitate regardless of the tribe/workforce/culture in order to fit in. Look at the schools. It’s informal but there are definitely trends and fashions to follow in order to relate. Just a thought, but the change in attire, then, is to create some formal distance between management and direct reports.
astrange 4y ago
Japanese suits/uniforms are often pretty cheap (and look that way) - thus the low end “recruit suit”. They are tailored, but the level of body-fitting they are would be actively unacceptable in the US. By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay. On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  > On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc. I remember some acquaintances running a decent side business buying and then selling vintage American clothes back in Japan (shipping or flying back). This was back in the 1990s so I believe it. (it also brought back some fond memories)
  - thefringthing 4y ago
    When Japanese enthusiasts scoured American thrift stores for the last remaining stock of vintage American denim, it supposedly constituted the largest ever transfer of clothing from the USA to Japan, exceeding even the postwar used clothing charity drives.
- rayiner 4y ago
  But the point is everyone looks like they’re trying to conform to the dress code. Much better than America, where just when you think it’s hit bottom, people plumb the depths further. (Most recently, by way of hair, tattoos, earrings on men, etc.)
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I have rings in both my ears and sleeve tattoos on both arms. What does that say about me?
    - mc32 4y ago
      I think it means you like teasing people.
    - onetimeusename 4y ago
      that you will live a long life and success is ahead
    - sprkwd 4y ago
      Means you have spent a lot of money on pain.

thefringthing 4y ago

Well, it's only in the context of the radical casualization of menswear since the mid-60s that jeans and a t-shirt can be seen as stylish. When men first started wearing this outfit, it was considered rebellious in part because it was so obviously inappropriate to wear in public. The t-shirt originated as a military undergarment and jeans as mining equipment.