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I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this crea

I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals. For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth spend $120k on a car. For watches, the same thing happens: if you're wearing a watch less than $50k, it had better be under $500. Otherwise you probably don't care much about watches. Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."

steveBK123 4y ago
Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling.. For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness. So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste. Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options. On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though). If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    True, but they are more likely to wear a $400 hoodie than a $200 suit. Outside SBF, even the executives dressing "casually" are still doing so expensively.
  - seattle_spring 4y ago
    > Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work with / for someone that dresses like that over formal any day of the week.
    - nobodyandproud 4y ago
      Yes. I like t-shirts and jeans and never want to go back to suits and ties but.. When I went to Japan a decade ago, I realized just how informal and slovenly American working attire had become.
      - cercatrova 4y ago
        Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
        nobodyandproud 4y ago
        This is true. Though I think many imitate regardless of the tribe/workforce/culture in order to fit in. Look at the schools. It’s informal but there are definitely trends and fashions to follow in order to relate. Just a thought, but the change in attire, then, is to create some formal distance between management and direct reports.
      - astrange 4y ago
thelittleone 4y ago
I had a business associate point out once how my mont blanc watch didn't have its own movement. Singapore is an interesting place in this regard. We had several young guys in our office who wore $10k plus watches while still living with their parents.
- bloodyplonker22 4y ago
  There is a chance he was trying to help you and not be condescending to you. I am not a watch person, but even I know that Mont Blanc, kind of like Beats Audio, is not really known for their fine craftsmanship in watches. They're more about marketing, like Beats.
- __turbobrew__ 4y ago
  In my experience East Asian culture prioritizes having nice clothes, nice cars, and nice jewelry over having a nice home. Other buy a home well beyond their needs but drive a honda shitbox and wear old navy (me).
vineyardmike 4y ago
> Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual." There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s) and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home. They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because they’re older than the “office casual” dress code, they tend to dress in overly professional button downs and slacks. The business attire that look out of place in tech next to a 25yo in a tee shirt. They don’t seem to know people don’t always take them seriously, and think “they’re not here to [change the world/be the best/rise in the ranks/etc], they’re here to avoid their wife and collect a salary”. TLDR: stop telling people you try to avoid your family, and start tailoring your clothes, it’s honestly not expensive.
- cafard 4y ago
  Or maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos, tee-shirted or not, think about their attire. They have seen the fashion wheel spin more than once, and are no longer compelled by it. (Source: upper 60s, go into the office mostly because a) it's not far, b) my office setup is a bit better, c) I don't want to wake my wife with Zoom calls. I do have some tailored shirts but seldom wear them.)
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    You can tailor your slacks and shirts too, and it's pretty cheap. It will make you look a lot better than what most people expect if you're the type to dress business casual. That is, if you care. Suits are very expensive to tailor by comparison.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos Its not about the fashion, its about looking put together. Its signaling that you care. Of course, there's the article which says that people who made it can stop signaling, so maybe that's you.
elevaet 4y ago
The "uncanny valley" of wealth display.
tptacek 4y ago
Where is this place where showing up in a Porsche 911 outs you as a car dilettante because you didn't shell out an extra $90k for the Maserati? I think the status symbols there might be reversed.
- projectazorian 4y ago
  If anything it's driving the Maserati that outs someone as a dilletante. Possibly the worst value for money of any luxury car brand.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    That's what I was thinking, too. (I'm not a car person and someone can easily school me here).
    - projectazorian 4y ago
      Yeah, if you want a 911 and have a little more money to spend, then there are more expensive variants of the 911 that Porsche will be happy to sell you. And they’re generally very good cars. Would get a Carrera GT over a Maserati any time.
      - ukd1 4y ago
        LOL, Carrera GT is in a different league (~$1.5mm). 911 is kind of like a Speedmaster, it's a classic, and even a basic one is "acceptable" for most car folks. The S, GTS, GT3, etc would be the more premium. Countersignalling might be to buy older versions, as most folks won't expect the prices, and they're "classics" (e.g. 993s, 964s).
        projectazorian 4y ago
        yes, my bad, I was thinking of the 911 Carrera GTS and forgot about the Carrera GT, lol
  - 4y ago
manigandham 4y ago
Having plenty of experience in both the car and watch worlds, what you're saying is somewhat true but it's based on brands, models and exclusivity rather than the price (which is a derivative of those factors). It's knowing which car or watch to buy, and also recognizing it on others, that acts as the signal.
- vintermann 4y ago
  This rings true to me. My hobbies aren't especially expensive, but in all of them there are certainly ways to spend money that would tell me that you don't "get it". "It" being what I find interesting about the hobby. Not that it's necessarily worse or that I want to pass judgment on it, just that the connection isn't there. But I wonder, in cultures very different from mine, which we generally see as more status-competitive, is that also true? Is it a faux pas to buy an expensive gold chain over a "proper" one?
  - manigandham 4y ago
    Not faux pas, but there are obviously "cool" items. Often it's because of some history, provenance, technology/construction, or some other story that bestows that notoriety and a few times it's just because the group collective considers it special.
SamReidHughes 4y ago
That's not really the case with watches.

steveBK123 4y ago

Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling.. For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness. So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste. Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options. On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.

SoftTalker 4y ago
Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though). If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  True, but they are more likely to wear a $400 hoodie than a $200 suit. Outside SBF, even the executives dressing "casually" are still doing so expensively.
- seattle_spring 4y ago
  > Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work with / for someone that dresses like that over formal any day of the week.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    Yes. I like t-shirts and jeans and never want to go back to suits and ties but.. When I went to Japan a decade ago, I realized just how informal and slovenly American working attire had become.
    - cercatrova 4y ago
      Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
      - nobodyandproud 4y ago
        This is true. Though I think many imitate regardless of the tribe/workforce/culture in order to fit in. Look at the schools. It’s informal but there are definitely trends and fashions to follow in order to relate. Just a thought, but the change in attire, then, is to create some formal distance between management and direct reports.
    - astrange 4y ago

thelittleone 4y ago

I had a business associate point out once how my mont blanc watch didn't have its own movement. Singapore is an interesting place in this regard. We had several young guys in our office who wore $10k plus watches while still living with their parents.

bloodyplonker22 4y ago
There is a chance he was trying to help you and not be condescending to you. I am not a watch person, but even I know that Mont Blanc, kind of like Beats Audio, is not really known for their fine craftsmanship in watches. They're more about marketing, like Beats.
__turbobrew__ 4y ago
In my experience East Asian culture prioritizes having nice clothes, nice cars, and nice jewelry over having a nice home. Other buy a home well beyond their needs but drive a honda shitbox and wear old navy (me).

vineyardmike 4y ago

> Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual." There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s) and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home. They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because they’re older than the “office casual” dress code, they tend to dress in overly professional button downs and slacks. The business attire that look out of place in tech next to a 25yo in a tee shirt. They don’t seem to know people don’t always take them seriously, and think “they’re not here to [change the world/be the best/rise in the ranks/etc], they’re here to avoid their wife and collect a salary”. TLDR: stop telling people you try to avoid your family, and start tailoring your clothes, it’s honestly not expensive.

cafard 4y ago
Or maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos, tee-shirted or not, think about their attire. They have seen the fashion wheel spin more than once, and are no longer compelled by it. (Source: upper 60s, go into the office mostly because a) it's not far, b) my office setup is a bit better, c) I don't want to wake my wife with Zoom calls. I do have some tailored shirts but seldom wear them.)
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  You can tailor your slacks and shirts too, and it's pretty cheap. It will make you look a lot better than what most people expect if you're the type to dress business casual. That is, if you care. Suits are very expensive to tailor by comparison.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos Its not about the fashion, its about looking put together. Its signaling that you care. Of course, there's the article which says that people who made it can stop signaling, so maybe that's you.

elevaet 4y ago

The "uncanny valley" of wealth display.

tptacek 4y ago

Where is this place where showing up in a Porsche 911 outs you as a car dilettante because you didn't shell out an extra $90k for the Maserati? I think the status symbols there might be reversed.

projectazorian 4y ago
If anything it's driving the Maserati that outs someone as a dilletante. Possibly the worst value for money of any luxury car brand.
- tptacek 4y ago
  That's what I was thinking, too. (I'm not a car person and someone can easily school me here).
  - projectazorian 4y ago
    Yeah, if you want a 911 and have a little more money to spend, then there are more expensive variants of the 911 that Porsche will be happy to sell you. And they’re generally very good cars. Would get a Carrera GT over a Maserati any time.
    - ukd1 4y ago
      LOL, Carrera GT is in a different league (~$1.5mm). 911 is kind of like a Speedmaster, it's a classic, and even a basic one is "acceptable" for most car folks. The S, GTS, GT3, etc would be the more premium. Countersignalling might be to buy older versions, as most folks won't expect the prices, and they're "classics" (e.g. 993s, 964s).
      - projectazorian 4y ago
        yes, my bad, I was thinking of the 911 Carrera GTS and forgot about the Carrera GT, lol
- 4y ago

manigandham 4y ago

Having plenty of experience in both the car and watch worlds, what you're saying is somewhat true but it's based on brands, models and exclusivity rather than the price (which is a derivative of those factors). It's knowing which car or watch to buy, and also recognizing it on others, that acts as the signal.

vintermann 4y ago
This rings true to me. My hobbies aren't especially expensive, but in all of them there are certainly ways to spend money that would tell me that you don't "get it". "It" being what I find interesting about the hobby. Not that it's necessarily worse or that I want to pass judgment on it, just that the connection isn't there. But I wonder, in cultures very different from mine, which we generally see as more status-competitive, is that also true? Is it a faux pas to buy an expensive gold chain over a "proper" one?
- manigandham 4y ago
  Not faux pas, but there are obviously "cool" items. Often it's because of some history, provenance, technology/construction, or some other story that bestows that notoriety and a few times it's just because the group collective considers it special.

SamReidHughes 4y ago

That's not really the case with watches.