5 ms·

As always, context is everything. Not all countersignals are that costly. For example, casual wear is common among devs. This signals that our skill set is val

by ajb 4y ago

As always, context is everything. Not all countersignals are that costly. For example, casual wear is common among devs. This signals that our skill set is valuable enough that we don't need to comply with corporate dress codes. Sometimes someone from a poor background turns up in a suit - for example, we had a QA guy who did, having converted from some previous career via a short course. Sometimes new grads come to interview in one, having been poorly informed by their parents or whatever. Continuing to wear different dress to your colleagues just makes them uncomfortable and doesn't help you, even if your skill set is not yet that valuable. The more general piece of advice here is that you should take advice from those who have just succeeded at what you want to do, not someone who did so a decade or more ago (parental career advice is usually well out of date. For example, my parents imagined that an academic career was still the easier option)

throw0101c 4y ago
> This signals that our skill set is valuable enough that we don't need to comply with corporate dress codes. Sometimes someone from a poor background turns up in a suit And then there's Vint Cerf.
- tuukkah 4y ago
  His approach may be something best described as counter-countersignalling.
borroka 4y ago
Perhaps dressing poorly (very common) and not being in shape (bimodal distribution, there are many in very good shape and many in very bad shape, few in between) started out as a counter-signal, but today it is just sloppiness, or convenience, like it is more convenient to order fast food instead of grilling chicken. I work in the tech industry, and although I don't usually wear a suit, I often show up in a spezzato, a pair of pants and a jacket of a different fabric/color. Nothing too flashy, but well put together. And I think that's the counter signal nowadays: show up looking good, feeling good, being what we want to be.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  I've personally never understood the business world's obsession with suits. Like, what does a deal need to be signed in a suit? What does the suit contribute to the deal? If it's to convey "professionalism", surely a cheap $300 piece of attire shouldn't be a stronger signal than whatever due diligence the two parties have done already?
  - throwaway821909 4y ago
    I think in the same way we have expensive cars or whatever to say "I have so much money I can afford to waste $x" we have suits to say "I'm so organised I can spare some effort dressing kind of impractically, just to look a bit better for you, my client"
  - ajb 4y ago
    A suit wouldn't be the last signal checked, but the first - back which most things were done in person. It's not the signing of the deal that needs the suit, but the introduction. And once you've been introduced in a suit, changing it later is another signal that you may prefer not to send. As well as that if you've gone to the trouble of having a suit and maintaining it, you may as well wear it all the time rather than waste time figuring out if you need to wear it that day.
labrador 4y ago
“You got to be awful rich to dress as bad as you do” ― John Steinbeck, Travels With Charley: In Search of America
chris_j 4y ago
Around ten years ago, I worked for IBM as a software engineer. The dress code at work was pretty casual, so I tended to wear jeans and a t-shirt in the office. One day, I was asked to speak at an event that would be attended by a lot of our customers. I asked my mentor, "Should I dress up? Should I wear my suit for the first time in years?" His response surprised me. He said, "These customers have come here to talk to engineers. Do you want them to think we've sent a salesman to talk to them." He made it perfectly clear that I should dress like an engineer. I confess I did get rid of the t-shirt; I wore a casual shirt with my jeans that day, and the folks that I talked to went away satisfied that they had indeed spoken with an engineer.
- chewz 4y ago
  Dressing casual, wearing glasses and not being too pushy was my secret sauce to selling software tools to chief engneers...

by ajb 4y ago

throw0101c 4y ago

> This signals that our skill set is valuable enough that we don't need to comply with corporate dress codes. Sometimes someone from a poor background turns up in a suit And then there's Vint Cerf.

tuukkah 4y ago
His approach may be something best described as counter-countersignalling.

borroka 4y ago

Perhaps dressing poorly (very common) and not being in shape (bimodal distribution, there are many in very good shape and many in very bad shape, few in between) started out as a counter-signal, but today it is just sloppiness, or convenience, like it is more convenient to order fast food instead of grilling chicken. I work in the tech industry, and although I don't usually wear a suit, I often show up in a spezzato, a pair of pants and a jacket of a different fabric/color. Nothing too flashy, but well put together. And I think that's the counter signal nowadays: show up looking good, feeling good, being what we want to be.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
I've personally never understood the business world's obsession with suits. Like, what does a deal need to be signed in a suit? What does the suit contribute to the deal? If it's to convey "professionalism", surely a cheap $300 piece of attire shouldn't be a stronger signal than whatever due diligence the two parties have done already?
- throwaway821909 4y ago
  I think in the same way we have expensive cars or whatever to say "I have so much money I can afford to waste $x" we have suits to say "I'm so organised I can spare some effort dressing kind of impractically, just to look a bit better for you, my client"
- ajb 4y ago
  A suit wouldn't be the last signal checked, but the first - back which most things were done in person. It's not the signing of the deal that needs the suit, but the introduction. And once you've been introduced in a suit, changing it later is another signal that you may prefer not to send. As well as that if you've gone to the trouble of having a suit and maintaining it, you may as well wear it all the time rather than waste time figuring out if you need to wear it that day.

labrador 4y ago

“You got to be awful rich to dress as bad as you do” ― John Steinbeck, Travels With Charley: In Search of America

chris_j 4y ago

Around ten years ago, I worked for IBM as a software engineer. The dress code at work was pretty casual, so I tended to wear jeans and a t-shirt in the office. One day, I was asked to speak at an event that would be attended by a lot of our customers. I asked my mentor, "Should I dress up? Should I wear my suit for the first time in years?" His response surprised me. He said, "These customers have come here to talk to engineers. Do you want them to think we've sent a salesman to talk to them." He made it perfectly clear that I should dress like an engineer. I confess I did get rid of the t-shirt; I wore a casual shirt with my jeans that day, and the folks that I talked to went away satisfied that they had indeed spoken with an engineer.

chewz 4y ago
Dressing casual, wearing glasses and not being too pushy was my secret sauce to selling software tools to chief engneers...