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Linux is a usability mess, and has been for 20 years. I give a new shot once every other year. Basic flow: - Works out of the box for a basic desktop - On

Linux is a usability mess, and has been for 20 years. I give a new shot once every other year. Basic flow: - Works out of the box for a basic desktop - Once you start installing drivers and software outside the package manager (Which you'll need to do immediately) and doing C+P CLI workarounds, the system state starts decaying, and things break. - The easiest way to fix things is usually a clean OS reinstall, in the sense of a car "total".

jacooper 4y ago
What drivers? You don't need to install any drivers if everything works.
- skipnup 4y ago
  My computer ran well with Linux with one display after instaing Linux. Then I tried to use a second, daisy chained, Displayport display. And the mess began. Confusing tips on forums, confusing and experimental drivers to install... And so on. Didn't manage to get it running.
  - account-5 4y ago
    The thing with Linux is it gets blamed for lack of vendor support. If something doesn't work with Linux it's Linux's fault, if something doesn't work with windows it's the vendors fault. That's never seemed fair to me. Those confusing and experimental drivers you mention are unlikely to be provided by the vendor and are likely a volunteer's best efforts to reverse engineer the driver As a counter point my old wireless canon printer works flawlessly out of its old box with Linux but getting it to work on windows 10 is full of confusing tips on forums, confusing and experimental drivers to install. Nightmare.
    - the__alchemist 4y ago
      My point isn't about who's at fault; it's the result.
      - account-5 4y ago
        Seemingly just for you.
        the__alchemist 4y ago
        This is manipulative and in bad faith.
        account-5 4y ago
        Like your replies then.
    - skipnup 4y ago
      In this case (it's was couple of years ago) it was a beta release by the manufacturer. Thing is, to me as an end user it doesn't matter who's at fault, if it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'm only so motivated to investigate something (functionality wise) basic not working while on Windows all the basics run fine but the advanced stuff creates problems. With Linux on desktop I never arrived at the advanced stuff giving up at (some of) the basic stuff not working out of the box. But I fully understand, from a technical standpoint drivers and daisy chained display probably aren't basic and Windows has hidden als the complexity from me for the last 20 years.
- Dwedit 4y ago
  The GPU drivers tend to be proprietary.
  - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
    Both AMD and Intel have open source drivers upstreamed into the Linux kernel (and are the vendor recommended ones, outside of certain enterprise use cases). It's really only NVIDIA that's proprietary.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Only nvidia's. And and Intel are open and included in the kernel.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      AMD*
jeltz 4y ago
What nonsense is this? While I admit that Linux has real usability issues which none of what you wrote is remotely true.
- bloaf 4y ago
  Rings true for me, I'm about at the reinstall stage with my HTPC. It will no longer send audio via HDMI due to some deep obscure pipewire config that broke itself without me touching anything. It also no longer connects to my Bluetooth keyboard on 2/3 of the keyboard's channels (actually it connects and disconnects very rapidly, several times a second, but is unusable regardless).
Silhouette 4y ago
Usability of Linux desktop environments isn't perfect but at least the trend is steady improvement. The days of having to do weird stuff just to make some everyday USB device work when you plug it in are mostly gone. The software available for Linux in a few areas is now genuinely best in class. It's not always the same exact applications you might be used to but then that's true of moving between Windows and macOS as well. My own experience of modern Linux is very different to yours. I don't think I've had to completely clean and reinstall any Linux system I use - desktop or server - for over a decade. Some of those systems have been through multiple full OS upgrades in that time but those were done in place and usually without losing anything (or gaining anything unwanted). It's obviously not perfect. Some of the recent Wayland changes got released by some distros before some of the applications that do video calls were fully ready for them and that caused problems with remote working for example. But it's paradise compared to the danger of installing any modern version of Windows or any Apple OS and getting serious regressions or overtly user-hostile new "features" that you can't turn off. I do think there's room for a modern desktop OS that doesn't have all the historical baggage of Linux. Not having a permissions model that sandboxes apps and the data they work with by default seems very outdated in 2022 for example. The traditional filesystem hierarchy is unnecessarily complicated and not well suited to modern systems. We rely on container technologies for professional work now because the package management and installation/update mechanics are so fragile (though no worse than Windows or macOS IMHO). I just wish the barriers to entry weren't so high now that it is tough for anyone to build a new desktop OS from the ground up any more.
account-5 4y ago
First point true. What's an advanced desktop consist of? Second point false, unless you're using something obscure and/or one of the pure only open source variants. Third point. This is down to experience. But when you do decide to do a full reinstall it's done in about 5 minutes. Can't complain about that!
timbit42 4y ago
A lot of your "problems" are because you've spent years buying "Windows" devices indiscriminately. If you had been buying things that were known to be compatible with Linux, you'd have no problems getting them to work. You didn't state which distro or package manager you were dealing with but there is a LOT more third-party support for DEB packages than the others, so that may also be why you had problems.

jacooper 4y ago

What drivers? You don't need to install any drivers if everything works.

skipnup 4y ago
My computer ran well with Linux with one display after instaing Linux. Then I tried to use a second, daisy chained, Displayport display. And the mess began. Confusing tips on forums, confusing and experimental drivers to install... And so on. Didn't manage to get it running.
- account-5 4y ago
  The thing with Linux is it gets blamed for lack of vendor support. If something doesn't work with Linux it's Linux's fault, if something doesn't work with windows it's the vendors fault. That's never seemed fair to me. Those confusing and experimental drivers you mention are unlikely to be provided by the vendor and are likely a volunteer's best efforts to reverse engineer the driver As a counter point my old wireless canon printer works flawlessly out of its old box with Linux but getting it to work on windows 10 is full of confusing tips on forums, confusing and experimental drivers to install. Nightmare.
  - the__alchemist 4y ago
    My point isn't about who's at fault; it's the result.
    - account-5 4y ago
      Seemingly just for you.
      - the__alchemist 4y ago
        This is manipulative and in bad faith.
        account-5 4y ago
        Like your replies then.
  - skipnup 4y ago
    In this case (it's was couple of years ago) it was a beta release by the manufacturer. Thing is, to me as an end user it doesn't matter who's at fault, if it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'm only so motivated to investigate something (functionality wise) basic not working while on Windows all the basics run fine but the advanced stuff creates problems. With Linux on desktop I never arrived at the advanced stuff giving up at (some of) the basic stuff not working out of the box. But I fully understand, from a technical standpoint drivers and daisy chained display probably aren't basic and Windows has hidden als the complexity from me for the last 20 years.
Dwedit 4y ago
The GPU drivers tend to be proprietary.
- dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
  Both AMD and Intel have open source drivers upstreamed into the Linux kernel (and are the vendor recommended ones, outside of certain enterprise use cases). It's really only NVIDIA that's proprietary.
- jacooper 4y ago
  Only nvidia's. And and Intel are open and included in the kernel.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    AMD*

jeltz 4y ago

What nonsense is this? While I admit that Linux has real usability issues which none of what you wrote is remotely true.

bloaf 4y ago
Rings true for me, I'm about at the reinstall stage with my HTPC. It will no longer send audio via HDMI due to some deep obscure pipewire config that broke itself without me touching anything. It also no longer connects to my Bluetooth keyboard on 2/3 of the keyboard's channels (actually it connects and disconnects very rapidly, several times a second, but is unusable regardless).

Silhouette 4y ago

Usability of Linux desktop environments isn't perfect but at least the trend is steady improvement. The days of having to do weird stuff just to make some everyday USB device work when you plug it in are mostly gone. The software available for Linux in a few areas is now genuinely best in class. It's not always the same exact applications you might be used to but then that's true of moving between Windows and macOS as well. My own experience of modern Linux is very different to yours. I don't think I've had to completely clean and reinstall any Linux system I use - desktop or server - for over a decade. Some of those systems have been through multiple full OS upgrades in that time but those were done in place and usually without losing anything (or gaining anything unwanted). It's obviously not perfect. Some of the recent Wayland changes got released by some distros before some of the applications that do video calls were fully ready for them and that caused problems with remote working for example. But it's paradise compared to the danger of installing any modern version of Windows or any Apple OS and getting serious regressions or overtly user-hostile new "features" that you can't turn off. I do think there's room for a modern desktop OS that doesn't have all the historical baggage of Linux. Not having a permissions model that sandboxes apps and the data they work with by default seems very outdated in 2022 for example. The traditional filesystem hierarchy is unnecessarily complicated and not well suited to modern systems. We rely on container technologies for professional work now because the package management and installation/update mechanics are so fragile (though no worse than Windows or macOS IMHO). I just wish the barriers to entry weren't so high now that it is tough for anyone to build a new desktop OS from the ground up any more.

account-5 4y ago

First point true. What's an advanced desktop consist of? Second point false, unless you're using something obscure and/or one of the pure only open source variants. Third point. This is down to experience. But when you do decide to do a full reinstall it's done in about 5 minutes. Can't complain about that!

timbit42 4y ago

A lot of your "problems" are because you've spent years buying "Windows" devices indiscriminately. If you had been buying things that were known to be compatible with Linux, you'd have no problems getting them to work. You didn't state which distro or package manager you were dealing with but there is a LOT more third-party support for DEB packages than the others, so that may also be why you had problems.