4 ms·

I'd like to offer a counterpoint: quite likely you'll reach a ceiling unless you move as a kid or, better yet, as a toddler or baby! I spent ten years in the US

I'd like to offer a counterpoint: quite likely you'll reach a ceiling unless you move as a kid or, better yet, as a toddler or baby! I spent ten years in the US, and was very lucky to have a wonderful native uncle who cared a lot and, sometimes tenderly and other times quite bluntly, corrected me constantly, but naturally this became less frequent. I was 17 years old when I arrived in the US, and after half a year there I could almost sense getting better by the day, it was an extremely exciting experience. My very naive illusion, however, was that this progress would stay linear until I caught up with the natives, but it unsurprisingly plateaued, in particular when it came to my accent and pronunciation. But again, that first half year felt amazing!

somrand0 4y ago
nah, I disagree. I've been trying to express complex ideas at the limits of my own grasp of language (including my native one) since always. And so long as I've kept trying I have kept improving. Surely diction is difficult, but you would have probably needed some diction tutoring or other tips to better use your mouth to sound like a native. It is possible but it's work. so this is my counter point to your counterpoint.
- ezequiel-garzon 4y ago
  Plateauing is compatible with maintaining an upward trend.
  - somrand0 4y ago
    that makes no sense to me. clearly something's missing here. could you elaborate? I understand a plateau to mean that there's no more upwards
    - shem73 4y ago
      It just means one is not improving monotonically. There may be plateaux but the general trend is upwards.
    - ezequiel-garzon 4y ago
      Consider reaching a point where you only improve half of what you improved the day before, say first p for some increment p in English proficiency (hence p/2 the next day, p/4 the next…). By definition, you’ll keep improving for the rest of your life, but will never improve 2p counting from that fateful day, à la Zeno. That’s an example, not a model, which I don’t have. And certainly you have a point, devoting time and money may clearly help vigorously push the upward trend for longer, but I was just talking about my experience, those relatively effortless early moments. In any event, no matter how much you apply, I think it’s hard to argue that it’s quite rare to find foreigners that moved to a country as adults and sound truly native, and I don’t believe it’s due to half-hearted dedication.
frant-hartm 4y ago
The effects of just absorbing what's around you diminishes at the C2 level. From my experience a huge effort must be made to improve beyond that, e.g. pronunciation won't improve without focused effort - you need a tutor or youtube videos on the topic. Still, great improvements can be made in niche areas - know you are traveling to Scotland for holiday? Watch video or two about the accent differences, few movies and you understand 95 % in no time.

somrand0 4y ago

nah, I disagree. I've been trying to express complex ideas at the limits of my own grasp of language (including my native one) since always. And so long as I've kept trying I have kept improving. Surely diction is difficult, but you would have probably needed some diction tutoring or other tips to better use your mouth to sound like a native. It is possible but it's work. so this is my counter point to your counterpoint.

ezequiel-garzon 4y ago
Plateauing is compatible with maintaining an upward trend.
- somrand0 4y ago
  that makes no sense to me. clearly something's missing here. could you elaborate? I understand a plateau to mean that there's no more upwards
  - shem73 4y ago
    It just means one is not improving monotonically. There may be plateaux but the general trend is upwards.
  - ezequiel-garzon 4y ago
    Consider reaching a point where you only improve half of what you improved the day before, say first p for some increment p in English proficiency (hence p/2 the next day, p/4 the next…). By definition, you’ll keep improving for the rest of your life, but will never improve 2p counting from that fateful day, à la Zeno. That’s an example, not a model, which I don’t have. And certainly you have a point, devoting time and money may clearly help vigorously push the upward trend for longer, but I was just talking about my experience, those relatively effortless early moments. In any event, no matter how much you apply, I think it’s hard to argue that it’s quite rare to find foreigners that moved to a country as adults and sound truly native, and I don’t believe it’s due to half-hearted dedication.

frant-hartm 4y ago

The effects of just absorbing what's around you diminishes at the C2 level. From my experience a huge effort must be made to improve beyond that, e.g. pronunciation won't improve without focused effort - you need a tutor or youtube videos on the topic. Still, great improvements can be made in niche areas - know you are traveling to Scotland for holiday? Watch video or two about the accent differences, few movies and you understand 95 % in no time.