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I've read about native English speakers who take classes to cleanse their colloquialisms from their speech. It's for conducting business with people who speak E

I've read about native English speakers who take classes to cleanse their colloquialisms from their speech. It's for conducting business with people who speak English but not natively. OP in a way is trying to do the opposite.

mxgrn 4y ago
Well, only in a way :) I don't think colloquialisms are necessarily what I'm after, but rather a richer, literate language.
- jollofricepeas 4y ago
  For American “literate”language favored by artists and elites: Avid book readers of classic and Early Modern English literature have a much wider and expressive vocabulary, and are more likely to pepper their speech with socially-accepted literary references. But for richer American language: I especially love the colloquialism, grammar and accents across the American regions. They’re so vibrant, punchy and exciting. This is best experienced in person when traveling and stopping into local restaurants but can also be found in literature, music and social media as well but it requires effort to find which it what makes it fun. In my case, I ask myself a question like what does a 40 year old blue class worker from New Jersey or a 19 year old Floridian rapper sound like, then the hunt is afoot. Elites find local speech ignorant but I find it mesmerizing - a radiant, colorful flower in a sea of sameness.
  - js2 4y ago
    > blue class worker Blue collar, a reference to the working class wearing blue-collared shirts as opposed to the professional class wearing white-collared shirt. Blue class workers are sad students, or maybe Smurfs. :-) > Elites find local speech ignorant but I find it mesmerizing. On account of because of your comment, I think you'd really enjoy Ball of Fire (1941). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcxH46a16g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcxH46a16g
    - yetanotherloser 4y ago
      It's possible that blue class workers got those blues real bad. I asked their women for comment, but they said they woke up this mornin', upped, and left 'em. The only ones I could catch up with were very old ones from the Missisippi Delta region, who admitted to feeling like a broke down engine...
cromka 4y ago
Interesting point, never thought of that. As an ESL speaker, somewhat advanced and with an experience of living in the US for a while, I have learned many colloquialisms that I recently had to become more aware of when dealing with someone speaking the language at a much more basic level. So this concept actually applies to people like me, too, and maybe even more so, since we're less likely to be able to instinctively evaluate how common or rare a colloquialism can be to a another foreign ear.
mabbo 4y ago
Damn, I would probably benefit from that. I've had a number of misunderstandings over the last decade where in hindsight, my communication was the root cause. My favourite: "I would". Meaning "in your situation, I would do X". And the person later came back and said "but you said you would do it".
- PeterHolzwarth 4y ago
  Ooo, that is a particularly great example - I wouldn't have thought of that (no pun intended), and I pride myself on being able to scale my use of English to the skill-level of the person I am speaking to. In fact, even if I was in "speak simply" mode, I would still use "would" instead of, perhaps, "recommend," as "would" is a shorter word: I favor simpler words over multi-syllable versions when trying to be maximally understandable to someone whose native language is not English. I'm glad you brought it up!
  - mabbo 4y ago
    To this day, I'm still unsure whether there was a misunderstanding or if I was being taken advantage of, but I presume good intent from the person.
    - jackvalentine 4y ago
      Sometimes people just hear what they want to hear. I’ve definitely been in situations where my advice was carefully caveated with a precursor “If I were in your situation, I would do X” and the person has just heard “I would do X”.
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    "I suggest ..." or "[Maybe] try ...".
- frant-hartm 4y ago
  As a non-native speaker, I fail to see how that can be understood differently.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
I too try my best to learn and use colloquialisms. Excessively formal language is very academic, something you learn in a school rather than by actually communicating with other humans. Inability to understand and communicate using informal language and slang marks us as foreigners. Even subtle differences in word choice can sound weird to native speakers. I test my fluency by attempting to pass off as a native speaker on the internet. If anyone ever suspected I'm not a native speaker, they never told me. I was once unmasked in an old video game though because of a mistake specific to that game and people from my country, a mistake I had internalized since childhood. That was quite shocking to me...
- bojan 4y ago
  > I test my fluency by attempting to pass off as a native speaker on the internet. If anyone ever suspected I'm not a native speaker, they never told me. How does this work exactly? Do you explicitly say you're a native speaker and then wait until someone realizes you are not and tell you? Because I don't see it happening that people will tell you they don't think you're a native speaker organically, in a conversation that's going on about something else.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    On anonymous and pseudonymous communities, people tend to assume everyone's american for various reasons. This is also true here on HN. In my experience, when people think someone else is a foreigner, they ask them where they're from. The assumption that they were talking to an american was violated so they try to determine who they're actually talking to. So if I can manage to not violate that assumption, it must mean that my speech resembles that of an american native speaker.
- kingbirdy 4y ago
  > I was once unmasked in an old video game though because of a mistake specific to that game and people from my country, a mistake I had internalized since childhood. That was quite shocking to me... I'm curious to know what the "mistake" was here. Is it something like referring to in-game items via their name in your native language, instead of English?
aix1 4y ago
Reminds me of this classic: https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-say-and-what-they-actually-mean/ https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-sa... "What Brits say vs what they actually mean."
- cardanome 4y ago
  As a German I feel this is just common sense polite speech. The only think cracking me up regularly is getting asked "How are you?". I just can't get used to it. Every time I hear it I have a split second reaction of actually processing how I am feeling before reminding myself it was just meant as a phrase. It is such a shitty thing to ask. It makes me more aware of my feelings but sets the expectations that I am not allowed to actually verbalize my feelings. Don't ask if you are not prepared for an honest answer. And yes, I know it is just a ritualized thing. Still annoys me.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    I (a native english speaker) frequently ask this question at the start of conversations. and I am actually seeking information- it is not an empty ritual. The following are in the context of a workplace conversation; other types of conversations may vary slightly depending on the scenario. Specifically, I am trying to understand how to set the tone for a conversation. If you are feeling stressed, busy, exhausted or frustrated, I may keep banter to a minimum, decide to ask for a meeting later instead of engaging a full conversation now, or even decide that whatever caused me to get your attention in the first place is less important and offer to help you instead of asking for your help. If you are feeling bored, content or happy, I might ask for more direct help than limiting the conversation to simply getting an answer to a question. No matter what the answer is, I'm also trying to use showing an interest in you to set the tone of the conversation to one of camaraderie and collaboration, rather than direction, accusation or competitiveness. There's a ton of nuance involved, no set rules, and the actual amount of time I am expecting to spend on the topic correlates pretty strongly to how well I know you. I'm not asking to be your therapist or your friend, but I am hoping for an honest answer, and if anyone expresses that they are struggling, I will offer to help however I can.

mxgrn 4y ago

Well, only in a way :) I don't think colloquialisms are necessarily what I'm after, but rather a richer, literate language.

jollofricepeas 4y ago
For American “literate”language favored by artists and elites: Avid book readers of classic and Early Modern English literature have a much wider and expressive vocabulary, and are more likely to pepper their speech with socially-accepted literary references. But for richer American language: I especially love the colloquialism, grammar and accents across the American regions. They’re so vibrant, punchy and exciting. This is best experienced in person when traveling and stopping into local restaurants but can also be found in literature, music and social media as well but it requires effort to find which it what makes it fun. In my case, I ask myself a question like what does a 40 year old blue class worker from New Jersey or a 19 year old Floridian rapper sound like, then the hunt is afoot. Elites find local speech ignorant but I find it mesmerizing - a radiant, colorful flower in a sea of sameness.
- js2 4y ago
  > blue class worker Blue collar, a reference to the working class wearing blue-collared shirts as opposed to the professional class wearing white-collared shirt. Blue class workers are sad students, or maybe Smurfs. :-) > Elites find local speech ignorant but I find it mesmerizing. On account of because of your comment, I think you'd really enjoy Ball of Fire (1941). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcxH46a16g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcxH46a16g
  - yetanotherloser 4y ago
    It's possible that blue class workers got those blues real bad. I asked their women for comment, but they said they woke up this mornin', upped, and left 'em. The only ones I could catch up with were very old ones from the Missisippi Delta region, who admitted to feeling like a broke down engine...

cromka 4y ago

Interesting point, never thought of that. As an ESL speaker, somewhat advanced and with an experience of living in the US for a while, I have learned many colloquialisms that I recently had to become more aware of when dealing with someone speaking the language at a much more basic level. So this concept actually applies to people like me, too, and maybe even more so, since we're less likely to be able to instinctively evaluate how common or rare a colloquialism can be to a another foreign ear.

mabbo 4y ago

Damn, I would probably benefit from that. I've had a number of misunderstandings over the last decade where in hindsight, my communication was the root cause. My favourite: "I would". Meaning "in your situation, I would do X". And the person later came back and said "but you said you would do it".

PeterHolzwarth 4y ago
Ooo, that is a particularly great example - I wouldn't have thought of that (no pun intended), and I pride myself on being able to scale my use of English to the skill-level of the person I am speaking to. In fact, even if I was in "speak simply" mode, I would still use "would" instead of, perhaps, "recommend," as "would" is a shorter word: I favor simpler words over multi-syllable versions when trying to be maximally understandable to someone whose native language is not English. I'm glad you brought it up!
- mabbo 4y ago
  To this day, I'm still unsure whether there was a misunderstanding or if I was being taken advantage of, but I presume good intent from the person.
  - jackvalentine 4y ago
    Sometimes people just hear what they want to hear. I’ve definitely been in situations where my advice was carefully caveated with a precursor “If I were in your situation, I would do X” and the person has just heard “I would do X”.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  "I suggest ..." or "[Maybe] try ...".
frant-hartm 4y ago
As a non-native speaker, I fail to see how that can be understood differently.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

I too try my best to learn and use colloquialisms. Excessively formal language is very academic, something you learn in a school rather than by actually communicating with other humans. Inability to understand and communicate using informal language and slang marks us as foreigners. Even subtle differences in word choice can sound weird to native speakers. I test my fluency by attempting to pass off as a native speaker on the internet. If anyone ever suspected I'm not a native speaker, they never told me. I was once unmasked in an old video game though because of a mistake specific to that game and people from my country, a mistake I had internalized since childhood. That was quite shocking to me...

bojan 4y ago
> I test my fluency by attempting to pass off as a native speaker on the internet. If anyone ever suspected I'm not a native speaker, they never told me. How does this work exactly? Do you explicitly say you're a native speaker and then wait until someone realizes you are not and tell you? Because I don't see it happening that people will tell you they don't think you're a native speaker organically, in a conversation that's going on about something else.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  On anonymous and pseudonymous communities, people tend to assume everyone's american for various reasons. This is also true here on HN. In my experience, when people think someone else is a foreigner, they ask them where they're from. The assumption that they were talking to an american was violated so they try to determine who they're actually talking to. So if I can manage to not violate that assumption, it must mean that my speech resembles that of an american native speaker.
kingbirdy 4y ago
> I was once unmasked in an old video game though because of a mistake specific to that game and people from my country, a mistake I had internalized since childhood. That was quite shocking to me... I'm curious to know what the "mistake" was here. Is it something like referring to in-game items via their name in your native language, instead of English?

aix1 4y ago

Reminds me of this classic: https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-say-and-what-they-actually-mean/ https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-sa... "What Brits say vs what they actually mean."

cardanome 4y ago
As a German I feel this is just common sense polite speech. The only think cracking me up regularly is getting asked "How are you?". I just can't get used to it. Every time I hear it I have a split second reaction of actually processing how I am feeling before reminding myself it was just meant as a phrase. It is such a shitty thing to ask. It makes me more aware of my feelings but sets the expectations that I am not allowed to actually verbalize my feelings. Don't ask if you are not prepared for an honest answer. And yes, I know it is just a ritualized thing. Still annoys me.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I (a native english speaker) frequently ask this question at the start of conversations. and I am actually seeking information- it is not an empty ritual. The following are in the context of a workplace conversation; other types of conversations may vary slightly depending on the scenario. Specifically, I am trying to understand how to set the tone for a conversation. If you are feeling stressed, busy, exhausted or frustrated, I may keep banter to a minimum, decide to ask for a meeting later instead of engaging a full conversation now, or even decide that whatever caused me to get your attention in the first place is less important and offer to help you instead of asking for your help. If you are feeling bored, content or happy, I might ask for more direct help than limiting the conversation to simply getting an answer to a question. No matter what the answer is, I'm also trying to use showing an interest in you to set the tone of the conversation to one of camaraderie and collaboration, rather than direction, accusation or competitiveness. There's a ton of nuance involved, no set rules, and the actual amount of time I am expecting to spend on the topic correlates pretty strongly to how well I know you. I'm not asking to be your therapist or your friend, but I am hoping for an honest answer, and if anyone expresses that they are struggling, I will offer to help however I can.