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> Singapore Basically a dictatorship > Denmark Only if you are Danish. > Norway Yeah, Norway gets some things right. > Switzerland Slow transition away f

> Singapore Basically a dictatorship > Denmark Only if you are Danish. > Norway Yeah, Norway gets some things right. > Switzerland Slow transition away from tax haven. > Finland Can't complain too much. > Netherlands An actual narco state in the heart of Europe, just don't tell the Dutch, they get upset when you tell them this.

rocqua 4y ago
I'm Dutch, and I am upset we have gotten close to a narco state. It's still nowhere close to true that drug dealers are being elected at the national level here, nor are national politicians clearly being pressured by drug dealers. But at the municipal level, there are a few cases of elected drug dealers and many cases of extortion. More worryingly is the infiltration of this business into wider society. Farmers who are asked to rent out sheds, and getting blow-back if they say no is a common example. Rampant corruption and extortion of dock-worker in Rotterdam is another example. I do want to note that the problem here isn't that we legalized weed. The problem is that Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. Antwerp (in Belgium, another country) is facing similar problems because of their port. What doesn't help either is our 'financial services industry'. Read: tax-haven and ownership hiding. Those are legitimate (though probably immoral) but it is a great climate for money-laundering. Both because there is lots of other money flows to hide amongst, and because the experts that could do it are already here. All they need is convincing to do illegal work.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  > I do want to note that the problem here isn't that we legalized weed. Part of the problem is that the Netherlands didn't legalize weed. The current policy in the Netherlands leaves the actual wholesale production, supply and distribution in the hands of drug cartels and gangs. Only the retail sale and consumption is legal. > The problem is that Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. Antwerp (in Belgium, another country) is facing similar problems because of their port. Yep. Except the problems more limited in Belgium for some reason. Tonnes of cocaine is smuggled through Antwerp, but there is less of the associated violence. You also seem to forget that the vast majority of amphetamine and MDMA marketed in Europe is manufactured in illicit labs in the Netherlands. There's a huge environmental issue with the wastes from these labs being dumped in the Dutch countryside. > What doesn't help either is our 'financial services industry'. Read: tax-haven and ownership hiding. Tbf, that is a BeNeLux wide problem, with Lux being the worst offenders.
  - ShredKazoo 4y ago
    I wonder if the Netherlands would be a good place to experiment with the libertarian approach of just legalizing everything. Like, if the drugs are manufactured in the Netherlands already, legalization won't change that. The hope would be that legalization would reduce the associated violence and corruption. You'd have legitimate, "above-board" producers outcompeting the assholes, with state power on their side. Just have to do it quickly before state power gets totally corrupted. I guess the best counterargument would be that export is the key issue, and receivers of Dutch imports would cut those imports off of if the Dutch aren't making even a token effort to restrict illegal-in-recipient-country drug smuggling.
    - rocqua 4y ago
      > I wonder if the Netherlands would be a good place to experiment with the libertarian approach of just legalizing everything. No, for two reasons. First the political climate here is turning against legalization. We are pushing back on the free sale of weed, and production was never legalized, and attempts at legalizing production are consistently pushed back. Second, our production of non-weed is inherently criminal. Legalizing it will only give these criminal enterprises a legitimate facade. The production is part of a bigger criminal organization, so legalizing it won't actually turn them away from crime. The criminal organizations are not 'small time doing crime to pay the bills'. Our most notorious captured criminal was recently suspected to be attempting to hire mercenaries from the Balkans (I forget which country) to break him out of prison with a helicopter escape. That is intentional criminality.
panick21_ 4y ago
If the Dutch are a nargo state the US should elect some drug dealers because they seem to be supportive of bicycle lanes.
ShredKazoo 4y ago
Tyler Cowen had an interesting post about Finland where he points out that it is the world's happiest country, and yet birthrates keep dropping: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/08/finntopia-what-we-can-learn-from-the-worlds-happiest-country.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/08/fi... It's interesting to me that Finland is right next door to Russia and yet so different. I suppose that goes for Baltic states like Estonia as well though. (Speaking of which, does anyone have dirt on Estonia?)

rocqua 4y ago

I'm Dutch, and I am upset we have gotten close to a narco state. It's still nowhere close to true that drug dealers are being elected at the national level here, nor are national politicians clearly being pressured by drug dealers. But at the municipal level, there are a few cases of elected drug dealers and many cases of extortion. More worryingly is the infiltration of this business into wider society. Farmers who are asked to rent out sheds, and getting blow-back if they say no is a common example. Rampant corruption and extortion of dock-worker in Rotterdam is another example. I do want to note that the problem here isn't that we legalized weed. The problem is that Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. Antwerp (in Belgium, another country) is facing similar problems because of their port. What doesn't help either is our 'financial services industry'. Read: tax-haven and ownership hiding. Those are legitimate (though probably immoral) but it is a great climate for money-laundering. Both because there is lots of other money flows to hide amongst, and because the experts that could do it are already here. All they need is convincing to do illegal work.

nibbleshifter 4y ago
> I do want to note that the problem here isn't that we legalized weed. Part of the problem is that the Netherlands didn't legalize weed. The current policy in the Netherlands leaves the actual wholesale production, supply and distribution in the hands of drug cartels and gangs. Only the retail sale and consumption is legal. > The problem is that Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. Antwerp (in Belgium, another country) is facing similar problems because of their port. Yep. Except the problems more limited in Belgium for some reason. Tonnes of cocaine is smuggled through Antwerp, but there is less of the associated violence. You also seem to forget that the vast majority of amphetamine and MDMA marketed in Europe is manufactured in illicit labs in the Netherlands. There's a huge environmental issue with the wastes from these labs being dumped in the Dutch countryside. > What doesn't help either is our 'financial services industry'. Read: tax-haven and ownership hiding. Tbf, that is a BeNeLux wide problem, with Lux being the worst offenders.
- ShredKazoo 4y ago
  I wonder if the Netherlands would be a good place to experiment with the libertarian approach of just legalizing everything. Like, if the drugs are manufactured in the Netherlands already, legalization won't change that. The hope would be that legalization would reduce the associated violence and corruption. You'd have legitimate, "above-board" producers outcompeting the assholes, with state power on their side. Just have to do it quickly before state power gets totally corrupted. I guess the best counterargument would be that export is the key issue, and receivers of Dutch imports would cut those imports off of if the Dutch aren't making even a token effort to restrict illegal-in-recipient-country drug smuggling.
  - rocqua 4y ago
    > I wonder if the Netherlands would be a good place to experiment with the libertarian approach of just legalizing everything. No, for two reasons. First the political climate here is turning against legalization. We are pushing back on the free sale of weed, and production was never legalized, and attempts at legalizing production are consistently pushed back. Second, our production of non-weed is inherently criminal. Legalizing it will only give these criminal enterprises a legitimate facade. The production is part of a bigger criminal organization, so legalizing it won't actually turn them away from crime. The criminal organizations are not 'small time doing crime to pay the bills'. Our most notorious captured criminal was recently suspected to be attempting to hire mercenaries from the Balkans (I forget which country) to break him out of prison with a helicopter escape. That is intentional criminality.

panick21_ 4y ago

If the Dutch are a nargo state the US should elect some drug dealers because they seem to be supportive of bicycle lanes.

ShredKazoo 4y ago

Tyler Cowen had an interesting post about Finland where he points out that it is the world's happiest country, and yet birthrates keep dropping: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/08/finntopia-what-we-can-learn-from-the-worlds-happiest-country.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/08/fi... It's interesting to me that Finland is right next door to Russia and yet so different. I suppose that goes for Baltic states like Estonia as well though. (Speaking of which, does anyone have dirt on Estonia?)