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Sanctioning a government fighting a war is very different from sanctioning people who want to engage in the economy without violence. I would argue the more th

Sanctioning a government fighting a war is very different from sanctioning people who want to engage in the economy without violence. I would argue the more the economic exchange to violence ratio is between two groups, the better it is for both groups (maybe not the leaders)

usr1106 4y ago
So you close Putin's and a couple of other credit cards and let everyone else continue a normal life? Maybe fairer to some individuals (like those already acting in opposition), but certainly a completely ineffective sanction.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this (you can't send gold / USD bills on the borders, and when there are banks involved, the leaders could always stop it).
  - usr1106 4y ago
    This might be a nice property in some cases. However, the massive speculation and pollution caused by crypto make the overall balance look strongly negative to me.
  - cesarb 4y ago
    > This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this [...] "Hawala as a legal concept came to be described as early as 1327, according to Schramm and Taube,[5][6] though the actual practice has existed since the 8th century [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
    - xiphias2 4y ago
      Looks cool, it's interesting that it's still a working system.
giantrobot 4y ago
Except the government fighting a war is getting taxes from those people that just want to engage in the economy to fund its war effort. Sanctions are not perfect but they're a better tool than a shooting war.
- usr1106 4y ago
  Not only directly supporting the government by paying taxes, but also implicitly keeping the current dictator in power. I don't say everyone should be active opposition, it's dangerous in that morally rotten state with its criminal government. But there is a tipping poing when a dictator and his elite falls. Nobody thought the Soviet Union or the GDR would fall in 1989/90. But they did, at some point the lying just did not work anymore. As long as average peaceful people can make a good living this is much less likely to happen.
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  - usr1106 4y ago
    While your comment style is a bit aggressive you have a point: Bush and Blair would belong into an international court for starting an attack war, just like Putin. My personal "sanctions" to the US are that I don't travel there anymore. I visited the country around 2 dozens times and I mostly liked it. But after 9/11 only twice and now not for nearly 12 years. 2 Bushs, homeland security, Manning/Assange/Snowden, and Trump gave me enough. Obama and Biden were too small sparks of hope in the 49% misery.
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
      Biden is not a spark of hope. There is a reason Obama didn't endorse him quickly. Note that he wanted to start the Russian war when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 as a VP but Obama had to personally intervene and veto the war because he knew instability in that region would blow up. Biden is nothing like Obama. He is an old timer who has zero mental cognitive ability beyond trying to save his son's investments in Ukraine. China is planning to drop USD with Gulf countries today. and the US power rests on USD. Future us will look upon Biden's era & foolishness as the death of American hegemony.

usr1106 4y ago

So you close Putin's and a couple of other credit cards and let everyone else continue a normal life? Maybe fairer to some individuals (like those already acting in opposition), but certainly a completely ineffective sanction.

xiphias2 4y ago
This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this (you can't send gold / USD bills on the borders, and when there are banks involved, the leaders could always stop it).
- usr1106 4y ago
  This might be a nice property in some cases. However, the massive speculation and pollution caused by crypto make the overall balance look strongly negative to me.
- cesarb 4y ago
  > This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this [...] "Hawala as a legal concept came to be described as early as 1327, according to Schramm and Taube,[5][6] though the actual practice has existed since the 8th century [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    Looks cool, it's interesting that it's still a working system.

giantrobot 4y ago

Except the government fighting a war is getting taxes from those people that just want to engage in the economy to fund its war effort. Sanctions are not perfect but they're a better tool than a shooting war.

usr1106 4y ago
Not only directly supporting the government by paying taxes, but also implicitly keeping the current dictator in power. I don't say everyone should be active opposition, it's dangerous in that morally rotten state with its criminal government. But there is a tipping poing when a dictator and his elite falls. Nobody thought the Soviet Union or the GDR would fall in 1989/90. But they did, at some point the lying just did not work anymore. As long as average peaceful people can make a good living this is much less likely to happen.
ShivShankaran 4y ago
- usr1106 4y ago
  While your comment style is a bit aggressive you have a point: Bush and Blair would belong into an international court for starting an attack war, just like Putin. My personal "sanctions" to the US are that I don't travel there anymore. I visited the country around 2 dozens times and I mostly liked it. But after 9/11 only twice and now not for nearly 12 years. 2 Bushs, homeland security, Manning/Assange/Snowden, and Trump gave me enough. Obama and Biden were too small sparks of hope in the 49% misery.
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    Biden is not a spark of hope. There is a reason Obama didn't endorse him quickly. Note that he wanted to start the Russian war when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 as a VP but Obama had to personally intervene and veto the war because he knew instability in that region would blow up. Biden is nothing like Obama. He is an old timer who has zero mental cognitive ability beyond trying to save his son's investments in Ukraine. China is planning to drop USD with Gulf countries today. and the US power rests on USD. Future us will look upon Biden's era & foolishness as the death of American hegemony.