7 ms·

Crypto is the only reliable way to pay contractors in Russia now. Saying "no real value" is quite stretch!

usr1106 4y ago
The question is whether paying contractors in Russia is ethically any better than paying illegal drugs. Not that the contractors would all be bad people. But sanctions are there to force change. The easier it is to make sanctions ineffective the longer change will take.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  Sanctioning a government fighting a war is very different from sanctioning people who want to engage in the economy without violence. I would argue the more the economic exchange to violence ratio is between two groups, the better it is for both groups (maybe not the leaders)
  - usr1106 4y ago
    So you close Putin's and a couple of other credit cards and let everyone else continue a normal life? Maybe fairer to some individuals (like those already acting in opposition), but certainly a completely ineffective sanction.
    - xiphias2 4y ago
      This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this (you can't send gold / USD bills on the borders, and when there are banks involved, the leaders could always stop it).
      - usr1106 4y ago
        This might be a nice property in some cases. However, the massive speculation and pollution caused by crypto make the overall balance look strongly negative to me.
      - cesarb 4y ago
        > This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this [...] "Hawala as a legal concept came to be described as early as 1327, according to Schramm and Taube,[5][6] though the actual practice has existed since the 8th century [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
        xiphias2 4y ago
        Looks cool, it's interesting that it's still a working system.
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    Except the government fighting a war is getting taxes from those people that just want to engage in the economy to fund its war effort. Sanctions are not perfect but they're a better tool than a shooting war.
    - usr1106 4y ago
      Not only directly supporting the government by paying taxes, but also implicitly keeping the current dictator in power. I don't say everyone should be active opposition, it's dangerous in that morally rotten state with its criminal government. But there is a tipping poing when a dictator and his elite falls. Nobody thought the Soviet Union or the GDR would fall in 1989/90. But they did, at some point the lying just did not work anymore. As long as average peaceful people can make a good living this is much less likely to happen.
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
      - usr1106 4y ago
        While your comment style is a bit aggressive you have a point: Bush and Blair would belong into an international court for starting an attack war, just like Putin. My personal "sanctions" to the US are that I don't travel there anymore. I visited the country around 2 dozens times and I mostly liked it. But after 9/11 only twice and now not for nearly 12 years. 2 Bushs, homeland security, Manning/Assange/Snowden, and Trump gave me enough. Obama and Biden were too small sparks of hope in the 49% misery.
        ShivShankaran 4y ago
        Biden is not a spark of hope. There is a reason Obama didn't endorse him quickly. Note that he wanted to start the Russian war when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 as a VP but Obama had to personally intervene and veto the war because he knew instability in that region would blow up. Biden is nothing like Obama. He is an old timer who has zero mental cognitive ability beyond trying to save his son's investments in Ukraine. China is planning to drop USD with Gulf countries today. and the US power rests on USD. Future us will look upon Biden's era & foolishness as the death of American hegemony.
- throw6383878 4y ago
  US imports of Russian enriched uranium, platina, cobalt... are now highest in history. Please leave empty moralising out of this. I am paying for programming services. Traditional banking system is unreliable, so I use crypto. Nothing illegal or unethical!
  - usr1106 4y ago
    I claim even driving a car is unethical. Russia earns more money from energy imports now than before the war. Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply is difficult to change and certainly not in an ethical way. So everone maintaining demand supports the war, whether they want or not. An action does not get ethical because others are worse. It's good for your conscience noting others are worse, I don't deny that. (And I did not say that I don't do the same. I recently had to take a plane. It was unethical to make Russia's war budget grow a tiny bit by doing so, but I thought staying at home would have had other morally unpleasant consequences.)
    - throw6383878 4y ago
      - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
        I don't think op is taking about CO2 emissions, rather that Russia exports a lot of fuel. But even if op is taking about CO2, diving a car and breathing aren't that comparable. Exhaling CO2 is part of the active CO2 cycle and doesn't really contribute to climate change. Digging up locked carbon from the ground and burning it does.
      - usr1106 4y ago
        No, I was not talking about CO2 now. I was talking about the global energy market. Most of Europe decided that buying energy from Russia needs to be phased out to give them less money to finance their attack war. I think that's a good plan. Unfortunately with acceptable supplies shrinking prices went up. So now Russia has more income to finance the war. I know it's not a very popular opinion, but for me drastically shrinking demand is the measure that helps. That this would help the CO2 issue is only a nice side effect.
black_13 4y ago
JKCalhoun 4y ago
And yet, for it's otherwise-no-real-value it may come to pass that even Russian contractors will say, "Нет биткоина".
- int_19h 4y ago
  When it is the only thing that can facilitate an exchange, that alone imbues it with real value.
WeylandYutani 4y ago
The only value Russia has is what's underneath the ground. Such a cruel joke from mother Nature putting all those natural resources in the hands of a nation and people so unworthy.
- sampa 4y ago
  Nature didn't do anything. It was all Russians who discovered and conquered that land. Read some history. "unworthy", yeah, sure.
louwrentius 4y ago
Crypto is the only reliable way to do crime is what you are arguing it seems.

The question is whether paying contractors in Russia is ethically any better than paying illegal drugs. Not that the contractors would all be bad people. But sanctions are there to force change. The easier it is to make sanctions ineffective the longer change will take.

xiphias2 4y ago
Sanctioning a government fighting a war is very different from sanctioning people who want to engage in the economy without violence. I would argue the more the economic exchange to violence ratio is between two groups, the better it is for both groups (maybe not the leaders)
- usr1106 4y ago
  So you close Putin's and a couple of other credit cards and let everyone else continue a normal life? Maybe fairer to some individuals (like those already acting in opposition), but certainly a completely ineffective sanction.
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this (you can't send gold / USD bills on the borders, and when there are banks involved, the leaders could always stop it).
    - usr1106 4y ago
      This might be a nice property in some cases. However, the massive speculation and pollution caused by crypto make the overall balance look strongly negative to me.
    - cesarb 4y ago
      > This is the first time in the history of humanity that the country leaders can be bypassed and money could be sent peer-to-peer between geographies. There is just no precedent to this [...] "Hawala as a legal concept came to be described as early as 1327, according to Schramm and Taube,[5][6] though the actual practice has existed since the 8th century [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
      - xiphias2 4y ago
        Looks cool, it's interesting that it's still a working system.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  Except the government fighting a war is getting taxes from those people that just want to engage in the economy to fund its war effort. Sanctions are not perfect but they're a better tool than a shooting war.
  - usr1106 4y ago
    Not only directly supporting the government by paying taxes, but also implicitly keeping the current dictator in power. I don't say everyone should be active opposition, it's dangerous in that morally rotten state with its criminal government. But there is a tipping poing when a dictator and his elite falls. Nobody thought the Soviet Union or the GDR would fall in 1989/90. But they did, at some point the lying just did not work anymore. As long as average peaceful people can make a good living this is much less likely to happen.
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    - usr1106 4y ago
      While your comment style is a bit aggressive you have a point: Bush and Blair would belong into an international court for starting an attack war, just like Putin. My personal "sanctions" to the US are that I don't travel there anymore. I visited the country around 2 dozens times and I mostly liked it. But after 9/11 only twice and now not for nearly 12 years. 2 Bushs, homeland security, Manning/Assange/Snowden, and Trump gave me enough. Obama and Biden were too small sparks of hope in the 49% misery.
      - ShivShankaran 4y ago
        Biden is not a spark of hope. There is a reason Obama didn't endorse him quickly. Note that he wanted to start the Russian war when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 as a VP but Obama had to personally intervene and veto the war because he knew instability in that region would blow up. Biden is nothing like Obama. He is an old timer who has zero mental cognitive ability beyond trying to save his son's investments in Ukraine. China is planning to drop USD with Gulf countries today. and the US power rests on USD. Future us will look upon Biden's era & foolishness as the death of American hegemony.
throw6383878 4y ago
US imports of Russian enriched uranium, platina, cobalt... are now highest in history. Please leave empty moralising out of this. I am paying for programming services. Traditional banking system is unreliable, so I use crypto. Nothing illegal or unethical!
- usr1106 4y ago
  I claim even driving a car is unethical. Russia earns more money from energy imports now than before the war. Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply is difficult to change and certainly not in an ethical way. So everone maintaining demand supports the war, whether they want or not. An action does not get ethical because others are worse. It's good for your conscience noting others are worse, I don't deny that. (And I did not say that I don't do the same. I recently had to take a plane. It was unethical to make Russia's war budget grow a tiny bit by doing so, but I thought staying at home would have had other morally unpleasant consequences.)
  - throw6383878 4y ago
    - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
      I don't think op is taking about CO2 emissions, rather that Russia exports a lot of fuel. But even if op is taking about CO2, diving a car and breathing aren't that comparable. Exhaling CO2 is part of the active CO2 cycle and doesn't really contribute to climate change. Digging up locked carbon from the ground and burning it does.
    - usr1106 4y ago
      No, I was not talking about CO2 now. I was talking about the global energy market. Most of Europe decided that buying energy from Russia needs to be phased out to give them less money to finance their attack war. I think that's a good plan. Unfortunately with acceptable supplies shrinking prices went up. So now Russia has more income to finance the war. I know it's not a very popular opinion, but for me drastically shrinking demand is the measure that helps. That this would help the CO2 issue is only a nice side effect.

black_13 4y ago

JKCalhoun 4y ago

And yet, for it's otherwise-no-real-value it may come to pass that even Russian contractors will say, "Нет биткоина".

int_19h 4y ago
When it is the only thing that can facilitate an exchange, that alone imbues it with real value.

WeylandYutani 4y ago

The only value Russia has is what's underneath the ground. Such a cruel joke from mother Nature putting all those natural resources in the hands of a nation and people so unworthy.

sampa 4y ago
Nature didn't do anything. It was all Russians who discovered and conquered that land. Read some history. "unworthy", yeah, sure.

louwrentius 4y ago

Crypto is the only reliable way to do crime is what you are arguing it seems.