7 ms·

I'm not sure how you can say something like this in good faith Sure, in raw numbers, maybe that's true Compared to previous decades where you could get on the

I'm not sure how you can say something like this in good faith Sure, in raw numbers, maybe that's true Compared to previous decades where you could get on the housing ladder reasonably easily and support a family with only one full time income, not so much

Thorrez 4y ago
In the 1800s they had 6-8 people living in a single room in NYC, with no windows and no plumbing.[1] My grandma (still alive today) grew up in the US without plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. There's an inverse relationship between wealth and fertility. Wealthy countries are less fertile than poor countries. Within wealthy countries the wealthier people are less fertile than the poorer people.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
xyzzyz 4y ago
You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today. It is really quite blatantly clear: as societies get wealthier, the fertility falls instead of rising.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  You can easily get thrown out of the workforce due to offshoring, AI automation or ageism. Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions and kept the same job till retirement. I'd take the 50s if this is the future the elites are planning for us.
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    >Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions Larry Page's grandpa was an autoworker, and had to carry around a pipe with a hunk of lead on it to avoid getting beaten up by his employer. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept-a-lead-pipe-as-a-weapon-in-case-he-had-to-bludgeon-his-employers-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept...
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      Some things got better and some things got worse, we can all find interesting anecdotes. You're saying the average American's story is more closely resembling Larry Page's than the one I described? I'm really not so sure that's true.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Your understanding of the past is very mistaken. Our grandparents had to deal with the same issues. I live Washington, and frequently travel around the rural areas here. The state is littered with coal mining towns abandoned a century ago, with lumber mills closed before WWII, with towns like Index, WA, which was established in late 19th century, and had its population and industry peak in 1920s-1930s. Our history is history of dynamism and change, and while some fraction of Americans lived and retired working for the same big factory in Detroit, this has by no means been an universal experience of our ancestors. In fact, if you look at the data, people today move for work less than our ancestors had. Our past was indeed glorious, but it was not a past of wealth and stability.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      > In fact, if you look at the data, people today move for work less than our ancestors had. Our past was indeed glorious, but it was not a past of wealth and stability. Indeed it depends how far you go back. I mostly talk about the baby boomer generation (who are "our" parents in many cases as many people here are 25-50 years old). In general they experienced more financial and occupational stability than us since they had much stronger unions and globalization was only starting.
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        There was a brief period in American history where workers were quite well off, but it had more to do with the rest of the industrialized world being bombed to pieces than with unions. When boomers started entering job market en masse in 1970s, they entered the economy of prolonged stagnation and high inflation, saw rationing of fuel, and by no means enjoyed significant stability. When they were buying houses, the nominal price was low, but mortgage rates were 8% at best times, 16% at the worst, making the mortgage payments scarcely more affordable than they are today. When they were entering job markets, the unions were already declining for two decades, and only something like a quarter of people were in a union in 1970. Really, the boomers only made a killing in last decade or two, resulting from the low interest rates pumping values of assets. They certainly did not have it easy or stable in their youths, when they were forming families. I think your understanding of economic history needs more research.
- Hermitian909 4y ago
  > You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today I'm curious what you think makes a 1950s quality of life? I agree that people expect more material things today, but many of those things e.g. computers are de facto requirements to be a member of society. It seems to me that it is significantly more expensive to afford a good meal or a decent sized apartment. Qualitatively, I know a large number of people who grew up in the 50s and their experiences of the time are different qualitatively. None of them ever struggled to meet their housing needs as long as they were able-bodied, and then generally only needed 20-40 hours of work (this include lower end work: construction, landscaping, retail). While I don't have the stats handy* materially we know that during the mid 1900s the bottom 50% of americans owned a higher percentage of private property than in any time in history. Since then, we have reverted to a much more unequal distribution. It's hard to imagine this does not impact the current feeling of people feeling they can barely afford a place to live. *if you have access to a copy of Capital and Ideology I believe you can find references in chapters 9 and 10
- bamboozled 4y ago
  The issue is, your kids will need / expect as much as other kids. So you might be happy with having little, but it's not going to be easy to send your kids to school and tell them they shouldn't have an iPad or an international holiday so mummy doesn't have to work.
  - pacija 4y ago
    It's even harder to teach them that what one knows, what one does and what one gives, is more important than what one consumes and what one has. But I think it will be worth it.
nxmnxm99 4y ago
People on HN and Reddit seem to think the only “past” that exists is 1950s America Not like life in America today is better than 99% of the rest of the world past and present. Spoiled people.

Thorrez 4y ago

In the 1800s they had 6-8 people living in a single room in NYC, with no windows and no plumbing.[1] My grandma (still alive today) grew up in the US without plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. There's an inverse relationship between wealth and fertility. Wealthy countries are less fertile than poor countries. Within wealthy countries the wealthier people are less fertile than the poorer people.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility

xyzzyz 4y ago

You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today. It is really quite blatantly clear: as societies get wealthier, the fertility falls instead of rising.

weatherlite 4y ago
You can easily get thrown out of the workforce due to offshoring, AI automation or ageism. Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions and kept the same job till retirement. I'd take the 50s if this is the future the elites are planning for us.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  >Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions Larry Page's grandpa was an autoworker, and had to carry around a pipe with a hunk of lead on it to avoid getting beaten up by his employer. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept-a-lead-pipe-as-a-weapon-in-case-he-had-to-bludgeon-his-employers-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept...
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    Some things got better and some things got worse, we can all find interesting anecdotes. You're saying the average American's story is more closely resembling Larry Page's than the one I described? I'm really not so sure that's true.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Your understanding of the past is very mistaken. Our grandparents had to deal with the same issues. I live Washington, and frequently travel around the rural areas here. The state is littered with coal mining towns abandoned a century ago, with lumber mills closed before WWII, with towns like Index, WA, which was established in late 19th century, and had its population and industry peak in 1920s-1930s. Our history is history of dynamism and change, and while some fraction of Americans lived and retired working for the same big factory in Detroit, this has by no means been an universal experience of our ancestors. In fact, if you look at the data, people today move for work less than our ancestors had. Our past was indeed glorious, but it was not a past of wealth and stability.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    > In fact, if you look at the data, people today move for work less than our ancestors had. Our past was indeed glorious, but it was not a past of wealth and stability. Indeed it depends how far you go back. I mostly talk about the baby boomer generation (who are "our" parents in many cases as many people here are 25-50 years old). In general they experienced more financial and occupational stability than us since they had much stronger unions and globalization was only starting.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      There was a brief period in American history where workers were quite well off, but it had more to do with the rest of the industrialized world being bombed to pieces than with unions. When boomers started entering job market en masse in 1970s, they entered the economy of prolonged stagnation and high inflation, saw rationing of fuel, and by no means enjoyed significant stability. When they were buying houses, the nominal price was low, but mortgage rates were 8% at best times, 16% at the worst, making the mortgage payments scarcely more affordable than they are today. When they were entering job markets, the unions were already declining for two decades, and only something like a quarter of people were in a union in 1970. Really, the boomers only made a killing in last decade or two, resulting from the low interest rates pumping values of assets. They certainly did not have it easy or stable in their youths, when they were forming families. I think your understanding of economic history needs more research.
Hermitian909 4y ago
> You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today I'm curious what you think makes a 1950s quality of life? I agree that people expect more material things today, but many of those things e.g. computers are de facto requirements to be a member of society. It seems to me that it is significantly more expensive to afford a good meal or a decent sized apartment. Qualitatively, I know a large number of people who grew up in the 50s and their experiences of the time are different qualitatively. None of them ever struggled to meet their housing needs as long as they were able-bodied, and then generally only needed 20-40 hours of work (this include lower end work: construction, landscaping, retail). While I don't have the stats handy* materially we know that during the mid 1900s the bottom 50% of americans owned a higher percentage of private property than in any time in history. Since then, we have reverted to a much more unequal distribution. It's hard to imagine this does not impact the current feeling of people feeling they can barely afford a place to live. *if you have access to a copy of Capital and Ideology I believe you can find references in chapters 9 and 10
bamboozled 4y ago
The issue is, your kids will need / expect as much as other kids. So you might be happy with having little, but it's not going to be easy to send your kids to school and tell them they shouldn't have an iPad or an international holiday so mummy doesn't have to work.
- pacija 4y ago
  It's even harder to teach them that what one knows, what one does and what one gives, is more important than what one consumes and what one has. But I think it will be worth it.

nxmnxm99 4y ago

People on HN and Reddit seem to think the only “past” that exists is 1950s America Not like life in America today is better than 99% of the rest of the world past and present. Spoiled people.