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> that so far isn't identified ... then I don't see what would be left except metaphysic So out of all "that so far isn't identified", there are just two class

> that so far isn't identified ... then I don't see what would be left except metaphysic So out of all "that so far isn't identified", there are just two classes of things: (i) biological and psychological processes; and (ii) metaphysics. This is some magic voodoo hand-waving here. Metaphysics seems to be just your way of saying "everything we don't know or understand".

xg15 4y ago
I think "physical process" already covers a lot of ground besides metaphysics. My main distinction was that anything physical is governed by the laws of physics that we know and that are generally deterministic. In contrast, metaphysics would be something entirely out of our realm of reality - which was how consciousness has been generally seen for a long time. But what other possibility would you see? Edit: > (i) biological and psychological processes Sorry, I had mixed up the word there. I was meaning "physical process", not "psychological". I had edited the other post to fix the word.
- wellpast 4y ago
  I think what you're doing is just saying "there's stuff we understand" and "stuff we don't understand" and you're calling all of it "Physics". And then you say "some other biological or physical process that so far isn't identified". The assumption here is that we'll eventually "identify" everything, which is another very bizarre, if not voodoo, assumption. It seems magical to think that humans evolved our perception and thought in this environment to be such things that could eventaully "identify" everything. But just in case you don't actually think that. Then you're calling "Physics" all of the things, including the things that we'll never "identify". Again, seems very much like a magic claim.
- akimball 4y ago
  Physical laws are stochastic, not deterministic.
doliveira 4y ago
Something that happens in our universe that Physics somehow has nothing to do with? How is that not magical/spiritual/metaphysical voodoo handwaving?
- wellpast 4y ago
  Physics is a set of things we understand about the universe and often used to include some mystifying things, i.e. that we don't quite understand (eg Bell's theorem). To just claim that Physics has to do with _more_ than this - that it has to do with all the things we don't understand is just blind-faith ascription. It's a nearly meaningless statement, really. So it's bizarre or voodoo to say it so casually and assuredly as if it were obvious or given.
  - doliveira 4y ago
    Physics, by definition, has to do with everything, well, physical going on in this Universe. It's not about whether we understand it or not, or whether we're comfortable with it. So yeah, if you claim conscience is not physical, then you're talking about metaphysics. Which is okay to do, but then claiming that those that say that Physics alone is probably enough are saying voodoo... Well, it's ironic.
    - wellpast 4y ago
      By whose definition? You don't _have_ to define it that way. To _choose_ a definition that ropes _everything_ under "Physics" is an unnecessary move, it's more magic trick than grounded derivation.

xg15 4y ago

I think "physical process" already covers a lot of ground besides metaphysics. My main distinction was that anything physical is governed by the laws of physics that we know and that are generally deterministic. In contrast, metaphysics would be something entirely out of our realm of reality - which was how consciousness has been generally seen for a long time. But what other possibility would you see? Edit: > (i) biological and psychological processes Sorry, I had mixed up the word there. I was meaning "physical process", not "psychological". I had edited the other post to fix the word.

wellpast 4y ago
I think what you're doing is just saying "there's stuff we understand" and "stuff we don't understand" and you're calling all of it "Physics". And then you say "some other biological or physical process that so far isn't identified". The assumption here is that we'll eventually "identify" everything, which is another very bizarre, if not voodoo, assumption. It seems magical to think that humans evolved our perception and thought in this environment to be such things that could eventaully "identify" everything. But just in case you don't actually think that. Then you're calling "Physics" all of the things, including the things that we'll never "identify". Again, seems very much like a magic claim.
akimball 4y ago
Physical laws are stochastic, not deterministic.

doliveira 4y ago

Something that happens in our universe that Physics somehow has nothing to do with? How is that not magical/spiritual/metaphysical voodoo handwaving?

wellpast 4y ago
Physics is a set of things we understand about the universe and often used to include some mystifying things, i.e. that we don't quite understand (eg Bell's theorem). To just claim that Physics has to do with _more_ than this - that it has to do with all the things we don't understand is just blind-faith ascription. It's a nearly meaningless statement, really. So it's bizarre or voodoo to say it so casually and assuredly as if it were obvious or given.
- doliveira 4y ago
  Physics, by definition, has to do with everything, well, physical going on in this Universe. It's not about whether we understand it or not, or whether we're comfortable with it. So yeah, if you claim conscience is not physical, then you're talking about metaphysics. Which is okay to do, but then claiming that those that say that Physics alone is probably enough are saying voodoo... Well, it's ironic.
  - wellpast 4y ago
    By whose definition? You don't _have_ to define it that way. To _choose_ a definition that ropes _everything_ under "Physics" is an unnecessary move, it's more magic trick than grounded derivation.