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I’m reminded of a similar blunder made by IBM with their PS/2 series of computers. The initial IBM PC, PC XT and PC AT models were very popular, because they c

by teddyh 4y ago

I’m reminded of a similar blunder made by IBM with their PS/2 series of computers. The initial IBM PC, PC XT and PC AT models were very popular, because they could be cloned by third-party manufacturers, which in turn created an enormous market for third-party software and hardware accessories and peripherals. But IBM wanted a bigger piece of that pie than just the few sales of genuine (and very expensive) IBM hardware, so they created the IBM PS/2 line: Heavily locked down, with its own new proprietary bus (MCA), connectors and peripherals; all heavily patented, so only IBM could produce them. It was a disaster. The only thing which endured was the PS/2 style connectors for mouse and keyboards, and those were made obsolete with USB. Nothing beside remains.

lproven 4y ago
> Nothing beside remains. This is wrong. The influence is far wider than you realise. The PS/2 standard for keyboards and mice is perhaps the only one that bears the name PS/2 but it is very far from the only standard that came out of the PS/2 range. VGA is a PS/2 standard. The VGA port and the still-ubiquitous SVGA plug and the SVGA modes is a PS/2 standard. My Core i7 nVME-only native-UEFI laptop still has both these ports on its vendor-supplied docking station. 3.5" HD 1.4MB floppy drives are a PS/2 standard. TTBOMK the 3.5" hard disk bay is also a PS/2 range innovation: while tower PS/2 machines came with 5.25" hard disks in the early models, the smaller desktop machines came with 3.5" hard disks. That was certainly the first time I ever saw a 3.5" hard disk and I vividly remember being boggled by how small it was. PS/2s predated the rise of CD drives and optical media. The desktop ones didn't have 5.25" bays. That drove the success of 3.5" hard disks. But the floppy drive was more influential. If you have an old PC with a floppy drive, then it's a PS/2 format floppy drive. More to the point, the PS/2 range is the direct reason that Microsoft Windows was a success. The widespread success of Windows is what created the conditions for Linux to be written. The reasons that the PC industry exists and thrives today is the IBM PS/2 range. I had to try to explain this here on HN recently, as in just this autumn, and while I can't find that comment, here's the blog post I made from it: https://liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org/87108.html https://liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org/87108.html And that itself caused considerable discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33019019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33019019
- teddyh 4y ago
  All right, yes, PS/2 spearheaded many more widely-used technologies than the keyboard and mouse port. Plan 9 also pioneered many things now widely used, including UTF-8. Now, does this in any way invalidate the analogy? If not, why go to such lengths in disproving a minor detail? The topic was Plan 9, and I made a comparison to IBM PS/2. Why write a minor essay about some detail about PS/2 which I got wrong, when that wasn’t the topic?
  - lproven 4y ago
    See the quote of yours that I started with. You are saying nothing else remains of the PS/2 than its mouse/keyboard port. That is not true. Lots of things from the PS/2 remain apart from that. That's it. That is the point. Not metaphors, not concepts, not influence. You said it only left 1 thing behind. It didn't. It shaped the whole PC industry from then on. All PCs after the PS/2 used PS/2 ports and PS/2 displays and PS/2 format storage media. OK, I concede, the stuff about the PS/2 driving Windows is a different issue: that's the inverse, the negative, the shape it left. But the ports and the media still stand.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      Yes, but how does this relate to Plan 9?
jsiepkes 4y ago
Certainly not the last time a company failed because they thought they could make big bucks by creating a vendor lock-in. Just look at Intel with Optane.
simne 4y ago
PS/2 series closeness, was not a problem. Real problem where other vendors, which offered new hardware (with for example, new CPUs), before IBM. First case was Compaq-386, which considered by wide public as brand, and appear on market, before 386 machine from IBM. As I know, Compaq-386, was not much commercial success, but it shown people, they could buy excellent hardware from other brands, not only from IBM. And after this happen, it made PS/2 series not so interest, as before.
- indymike 4y ago
  The issue with PS/2 was the new MicroChannel bus that was incompatible with existing expansion cards (except for the 30/286 which had a couple of old-style AT bus connectors). This was a real problem for people that had devices that required an expansion cards (tape drives, network adapters, memory expansion, DTP display adapters, multi serial port cards) - you couldn't just move up to IBM. As a result the clone manufacturers came out with EISA - a card format that had all the benefits of MicroChannel, but was compatible (with a really over-engineered connector) with older AT bus cards. I believe ALR and Compaq were among the first with EISA. Incidentally, Compaq really put it to IBM with their lunch box style portable 386 and 486 models.
  - rstupek 4y ago
    I worked at Compaq just after the 486 model and those things were nice for their time
    - simne 4y ago
      Yeah, I seen Compaqs of near times. Have some quirks, but overall impression good.
  - simne 4y ago
    Unfortunately, practical EISA was too expensive, to compete with MCA. MCA was completely defeated only when happen PCI. Because of this, some time exists Vesa, and some other exotics.

by teddyh 4y ago

lproven 4y ago

> Nothing beside remains. This is wrong. The influence is far wider than you realise. The PS/2 standard for keyboards and mice is perhaps the only one that bears the name PS/2 but it is very far from the only standard that came out of the PS/2 range. VGA is a PS/2 standard. The VGA port and the still-ubiquitous SVGA plug and the SVGA modes is a PS/2 standard. My Core i7 nVME-only native-UEFI laptop still has both these ports on its vendor-supplied docking station. 3.5" HD 1.4MB floppy drives are a PS/2 standard. TTBOMK the 3.5" hard disk bay is also a PS/2 range innovation: while tower PS/2 machines came with 5.25" hard disks in the early models, the smaller desktop machines came with 3.5" hard disks. That was certainly the first time I ever saw a 3.5" hard disk and I vividly remember being boggled by how small it was. PS/2s predated the rise of CD drives and optical media. The desktop ones didn't have 5.25" bays. That drove the success of 3.5" hard disks. But the floppy drive was more influential. If you have an old PC with a floppy drive, then it's a PS/2 format floppy drive. More to the point, the PS/2 range is the direct reason that Microsoft Windows was a success. The widespread success of Windows is what created the conditions for Linux to be written. The reasons that the PC industry exists and thrives today is the IBM PS/2 range. I had to try to explain this here on HN recently, as in just this autumn, and while I can't find that comment, here's the blog post I made from it: https://liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org/87108.html https://liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org/87108.html And that itself caused considerable discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33019019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33019019

teddyh 4y ago
All right, yes, PS/2 spearheaded many more widely-used technologies than the keyboard and mouse port. Plan 9 also pioneered many things now widely used, including UTF-8. Now, does this in any way invalidate the analogy? If not, why go to such lengths in disproving a minor detail? The topic was Plan 9, and I made a comparison to IBM PS/2. Why write a minor essay about some detail about PS/2 which I got wrong, when that wasn’t the topic?
- lproven 4y ago
  See the quote of yours that I started with. You are saying nothing else remains of the PS/2 than its mouse/keyboard port. That is not true. Lots of things from the PS/2 remain apart from that. That's it. That is the point. Not metaphors, not concepts, not influence. You said it only left 1 thing behind. It didn't. It shaped the whole PC industry from then on. All PCs after the PS/2 used PS/2 ports and PS/2 displays and PS/2 format storage media. OK, I concede, the stuff about the PS/2 driving Windows is a different issue: that's the inverse, the negative, the shape it left. But the ports and the media still stand.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    Yes, but how does this relate to Plan 9?

jsiepkes 4y ago

Certainly not the last time a company failed because they thought they could make big bucks by creating a vendor lock-in. Just look at Intel with Optane.

simne 4y ago

PS/2 series closeness, was not a problem. Real problem where other vendors, which offered new hardware (with for example, new CPUs), before IBM. First case was Compaq-386, which considered by wide public as brand, and appear on market, before 386 machine from IBM. As I know, Compaq-386, was not much commercial success, but it shown people, they could buy excellent hardware from other brands, not only from IBM. And after this happen, it made PS/2 series not so interest, as before.

indymike 4y ago
The issue with PS/2 was the new MicroChannel bus that was incompatible with existing expansion cards (except for the 30/286 which had a couple of old-style AT bus connectors). This was a real problem for people that had devices that required an expansion cards (tape drives, network adapters, memory expansion, DTP display adapters, multi serial port cards) - you couldn't just move up to IBM. As a result the clone manufacturers came out with EISA - a card format that had all the benefits of MicroChannel, but was compatible (with a really over-engineered connector) with older AT bus cards. I believe ALR and Compaq were among the first with EISA. Incidentally, Compaq really put it to IBM with their lunch box style portable 386 and 486 models.
- rstupek 4y ago
  I worked at Compaq just after the 486 model and those things were nice for their time
  - simne 4y ago
    Yeah, I seen Compaqs of near times. Have some quirks, but overall impression good.
- simne 4y ago
  Unfortunately, practical EISA was too expensive, to compete with MCA. MCA was completely defeated only when happen PCI. Because of this, some time exists Vesa, and some other exotics.