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European here. The EU can go to hell and I long for the day when the union will finally implode.

dbspin 4y ago
EU citizen here. You are not representative. The EU is an incredible boon to civil rights, national wealth and our consumer protections are enviable.
- defaulter4once 4y ago
  The EU is a boon for the mercantile class. It's by design... ;-)
  - dbspin 4y ago
    It lifted my country as well as dozens of others out of developing world status. There's a huge delta in national wealth between post soviet nations who joined the EU and those that didn't for example. A rising tide raises all boats.
    - defaulter4once 4y ago
      Your reply sounds like a cheerleader chant. :D Did the common person benefit from this "lift" that you mention or merely the technocrat who was willing to do the bidding of the new master?
      - sofixa 4y ago
        Yes, it lifted everyone. Take a look into any stat on minimum/median salary, standard of living, HDI in any Central or Eastern European country that joined the EU against those that didn't - the gulf is massive. Also having lived in one such country before and after joining - yes, the EU helped lift everyone upwards.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      The eastern europe will lose the most in long run, because the EU caused a massive brain drain. For the west it’s just a matter of money. The demographic crisis in the east is real.
      - pelorat 4y ago
        "Eastern" Europe shouldn't exist, it should be just Europe. How is there a demographic crisis in the east?
        sgjohnson 4y ago
        > How is there a demographic crisis in the east? Net emigration & a fertility rate of 1.7 is what I’d call “demographic crisis”
      - AntiRemoteWork 4y ago
        [dead]
      - sofixa 4y ago
        The demographic crisis is real in the Eastern European countries not in the EU (Western Balkans, former USSR) too, but at least the standard of living has massively improved in the EU member states.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > The EU is an incredible boon to civil rights We don’t even have a true right to free speech. That puts us behind the U.S., because I struggle to think of a “civil right” that we have but Americans don’t. And before you pull “healthcare”, first of all, it’s got nothing to do with the EU, and secondly, in most EU countries the state-funded healthcare is so abysmal that everyone who can afford it still takes out private insurance. > and our consumer protections are enviable. Like GDPR, which is a legislation so fantastic that for most businesses it’s physically impossible to truly comply with it?
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > We don’t even have a true right to free speech. That puts us behind the U.S., because I struggle to think of a “civil right” that we have but Americans don’t. > And before you pull “healthcare”, first of all, it’s got nothing to do with the EU, and secondly, in most EU countries the state-funded healthcare is so abysmal that everyone who can afford it still takes out private insurance. So free speech is an EU matter but healthcare is a local one? No, both are decided locally with limited EU oversight - e.g. the EU is trying to punish Poland and Hungary's free speech limitations. > We don’t even have a true right to free speech Specifically this is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Legislation prohibiting antisemitic speech doesn't make free speech not "truly free", it just makes it not absolute, which is IMO necessary for a civilised developed society, as long as there are controls to ensure it's not abused. > Like GDPR, which is a legislation so fantastic that for most businesses it’s physically impossible to truly comply with it? Why do you think that? The majority of business comply with it. In terms of civil rights we have more than Americans - abortions (in most places, not an EU but local thing), the right not to get murdered by poor policing or overarmed population, consumer protections such as mandatory minimum warranties and return periods. Also there are much better employee and tenant protections. Also a much better political and judicial system - first past the post? Politically appointed judges? All in all, the EU is a marvelous thing that has enabled peace and prosperity across a continent, and has done far more good than bad - universal phone chargers, consumer protections at every level (flight delays, warranties, data), the new forced interoperability between gatekeepers, the euro and SEPA, the subsidies that have enabled so much development. Anyone rooting against it probably doesn't understand it all that well, or is an isolationist.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  And huge disparity between south, east and west, discrimination, worker exploitation, systemic racism against europe’s minorities, human trafficking and cross border corruption, policies made to serve some countries and not others, and those european countries not within the eu or affiliated effectively isolated.
  - pelorat 4y ago
    > systemic racism against europe’s minorities, human trafficking and cross border corruption, policies made to serve some countries and not others You are describing the USA.
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      Here in europe even trying to humanise the roma can be an issue. Those people are so discriminated against that even defending them is looked down upon. Entire countries are maligned simply because they have a large number of this minority. No ethnic group in the us is as discriminated as these folks are in europe. America has not known such racism since the end of slavery. Corruption is well obvious. See ursula, the head of the ecb and so on.
mrtksn 4y ago
Who do you think makes these rules and laws in the EU? Belgians? Reptilians? It's the elected by the people of each country and the appointed by those elected by the people of each country. EU is not a subscription provided by 3rd parties, EU is about coordination between the the European countries and any country can veto. That's actually why EU is considered slow and inefficient in some areas. If EU says no more cash payments over 10K EUR, that means all the member countries agree that no more cash payments over 10K EUR.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > Who do you think makes these rules and laws in the EU? Belgians? Reptilians? Germany and France, mostly. > European countries and any country can veto. That's actually why EU is considered slow and inefficient in some areas. First of all, this is not true. There’s no single party veto on legislation. Secondly, the US states have an even more effective veto, which is just ignoring federal law, because nobody can force them to enforce it. And having no single-party veto on legislation means that if you’re from a smaller EU country, you’ll never EVER have any meaningful impact on _anything_. > If EU says no more cash payments over 10K EUR, that means all the member countries agree that no more cash payments over 10K EUR. As explained before, nope. It’s true that there is single-party veto on certain things (admissions to the Union itself, the eurozone, or schengen, but not for legislation)
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    So you believe that your country politicians were all into large cash payments but the French and the Germans are making you go digital? Which country may I ask?
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      In my country cash payments over €8k were already banned, but it’s a largely unenforced law.
      - mrtksn 4y ago

EU citizen here. You are not representative. The EU is an incredible boon to civil rights, national wealth and our consumer protections are enviable.

defaulter4once 4y ago
The EU is a boon for the mercantile class. It's by design... ;-)
- dbspin 4y ago
  It lifted my country as well as dozens of others out of developing world status. There's a huge delta in national wealth between post soviet nations who joined the EU and those that didn't for example. A rising tide raises all boats.
  - defaulter4once 4y ago
    Your reply sounds like a cheerleader chant. :D Did the common person benefit from this "lift" that you mention or merely the technocrat who was willing to do the bidding of the new master?
    - sofixa 4y ago
      Yes, it lifted everyone. Take a look into any stat on minimum/median salary, standard of living, HDI in any Central or Eastern European country that joined the EU against those that didn't - the gulf is massive. Also having lived in one such country before and after joining - yes, the EU helped lift everyone upwards.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    The eastern europe will lose the most in long run, because the EU caused a massive brain drain. For the west it’s just a matter of money. The demographic crisis in the east is real.
    - pelorat 4y ago
      "Eastern" Europe shouldn't exist, it should be just Europe. How is there a demographic crisis in the east?
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        > How is there a demographic crisis in the east? Net emigration & a fertility rate of 1.7 is what I’d call “demographic crisis”
    - AntiRemoteWork 4y ago
      [dead]
    - sofixa 4y ago
      The demographic crisis is real in the Eastern European countries not in the EU (Western Balkans, former USSR) too, but at least the standard of living has massively improved in the EU member states.
sgjohnson 4y ago
> The EU is an incredible boon to civil rights We don’t even have a true right to free speech. That puts us behind the U.S., because I struggle to think of a “civil right” that we have but Americans don’t. And before you pull “healthcare”, first of all, it’s got nothing to do with the EU, and secondly, in most EU countries the state-funded healthcare is so abysmal that everyone who can afford it still takes out private insurance. > and our consumer protections are enviable. Like GDPR, which is a legislation so fantastic that for most businesses it’s physically impossible to truly comply with it?
- sofixa 4y ago
  > We don’t even have a true right to free speech. That puts us behind the U.S., because I struggle to think of a “civil right” that we have but Americans don’t. > And before you pull “healthcare”, first of all, it’s got nothing to do with the EU, and secondly, in most EU countries the state-funded healthcare is so abysmal that everyone who can afford it still takes out private insurance. So free speech is an EU matter but healthcare is a local one? No, both are decided locally with limited EU oversight - e.g. the EU is trying to punish Poland and Hungary's free speech limitations. > We don’t even have a true right to free speech Specifically this is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Legislation prohibiting antisemitic speech doesn't make free speech not "truly free", it just makes it not absolute, which is IMO necessary for a civilised developed society, as long as there are controls to ensure it's not abused. > Like GDPR, which is a legislation so fantastic that for most businesses it’s physically impossible to truly comply with it? Why do you think that? The majority of business comply with it. In terms of civil rights we have more than Americans - abortions (in most places, not an EU but local thing), the right not to get murdered by poor policing or overarmed population, consumer protections such as mandatory minimum warranties and return periods. Also there are much better employee and tenant protections. Also a much better political and judicial system - first past the post? Politically appointed judges? All in all, the EU is a marvelous thing that has enabled peace and prosperity across a continent, and has done far more good than bad - universal phone chargers, consumer protections at every level (flight delays, warranties, data), the new forced interoperability between gatekeepers, the euro and SEPA, the subsidies that have enabled so much development. Anyone rooting against it probably doesn't understand it all that well, or is an isolationist.
yrgulation 4y ago
And huge disparity between south, east and west, discrimination, worker exploitation, systemic racism against europe’s minorities, human trafficking and cross border corruption, policies made to serve some countries and not others, and those european countries not within the eu or affiliated effectively isolated.
- pelorat 4y ago
  > systemic racism against europe’s minorities, human trafficking and cross border corruption, policies made to serve some countries and not others You are describing the USA.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    Here in europe even trying to humanise the roma can be an issue. Those people are so discriminated against that even defending them is looked down upon. Entire countries are maligned simply because they have a large number of this minority. No ethnic group in the us is as discriminated as these folks are in europe. America has not known such racism since the end of slavery. Corruption is well obvious. See ursula, the head of the ecb and so on.

mrtksn 4y ago

Who do you think makes these rules and laws in the EU? Belgians? Reptilians? It's the elected by the people of each country and the appointed by those elected by the people of each country. EU is not a subscription provided by 3rd parties, EU is about coordination between the the European countries and any country can veto. That's actually why EU is considered slow and inefficient in some areas. If EU says no more cash payments over 10K EUR, that means all the member countries agree that no more cash payments over 10K EUR.

sgjohnson 4y ago
> Who do you think makes these rules and laws in the EU? Belgians? Reptilians? Germany and France, mostly. > European countries and any country can veto. That's actually why EU is considered slow and inefficient in some areas. First of all, this is not true. There’s no single party veto on legislation. Secondly, the US states have an even more effective veto, which is just ignoring federal law, because nobody can force them to enforce it. And having no single-party veto on legislation means that if you’re from a smaller EU country, you’ll never EVER have any meaningful impact on _anything_. > If EU says no more cash payments over 10K EUR, that means all the member countries agree that no more cash payments over 10K EUR. As explained before, nope. It’s true that there is single-party veto on certain things (admissions to the Union itself, the eurozone, or schengen, but not for legislation)
- mrtksn 4y ago
  So you believe that your country politicians were all into large cash payments but the French and the Germans are making you go digital? Which country may I ask?
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    In my country cash payments over €8k were already banned, but it’s a largely unenforced law.
    - mrtksn 4y ago