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So Greek became corrupt and went bankrupt because bribes were tax-deductible in Germany until the 90s? How far back should we turn the wheels of time? https://

So Greek became corrupt and went bankrupt because bribes were tax-deductible in Germany until the 90s? How far back should we turn the wheels of time? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals And what does that have to do with the Greek government falsifying their statements to join the EU and take on debt? https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admit... Probably zeeee Germans bribed zeee Greek to force them join zeee EU. Greek f**d up, lied, covered it up, lied more, covered up more and then had to face the consequences.

m000 4y ago
If you really want to turn the wheels of time, Siemens has been consistently involved in corruption in Greece since the 1920s. Governments and political alignments change. The constant factor is the bribing company. Also, FYI, the 2004 admission by finance minister Alogoskoufis was a total joke. Sadly for Greece, world politics is not the right place for this kind of jokes. The newly elected at the time ND government wanted an excuse to get a carte blanche to apply their financial agenda, so they invented one: Alogoskoufis ordered a retrospective "audit" where they switched from the standard Eurostat practice of budgeting defense contracts at the time of delivery to budgeting them at the time of signing [1]. This essentially shifted future expenses (many of them payable during his mandate) to the past, in order to make the previous PASOK administration appear disingenuous. Alogoskoufis essentially brought the country to world disrepute, so they could score a few cheap political points internally. And he was naive (stupid?) enough to believe that this would somehow only affect his political opponents and not the whole country [2]. [1] https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/84157/1/Greece%20%20a%20crisis%20in%20two%20level%20governance_cover%20._Final%20pdf.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/84157/1/Greece%20%20a%20crisis%20i... [2] https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/27649/alogoskoufis-expects-no-sanctions-for-past-deficits/ https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/27649/alogoskoufis-expe...
phs318u 4y ago
You and I are neighbours. I ask to borrow your chainsaw. You lend it. Next month you come knocking wanting it back. I point to the corner where it lays broken and shrug. Some time later I ask to borrow your lawn mower. You give it. When you ask for it back I regretfully explain that I had to hock it to pay off my bookie. Later still, I ask to borrow your Mercedes. You look at my front yard where a beat up old Toyota is sitting on blocks. I swear on my mother’s grave that I’ll look after your car and treat it just like my own. You then hand over the keys. There is (or should be) a moral hazard attached to lending irresponsibly. It was an open secret back then that the books were cooked to let Greece in. Certainly nothing in the history of the modern Greek state gave any confidence it would be different. Yet you would have us believe that Deutche Bank [0] were utterly naive and blind to history. That they were poor, unsuspecting, honest fools who didn’t have a clue what they were getting into. [0]. https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5-biggest-scandals/a-46510219 https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5-biggest-scandals/a-46...
- looping__lui 4y ago
  Greeks lied about their finances and took loans they couldn’t pay back. I don’t see how they are the victim in this discussion. Deutsche Bank or anybody else giving money to Greek is stupid imho. Lacking “street smart” for sure. Still I paid for this bullshit w/ my taxes and could t do anything about it. Do I dig this entire “oh poor Greek got screwed by Germany and Greek is the victim” nonsense? No. Greek lies and screws over their neighbors and then threatens to tank the entire EU / Euro over their bankruptcy: not a victim. Not to be trusted. Thats what you imply with your post: don’t trust the Greek, they lied in the past, they will lie in the future. No sympathy from my end.
  - phs318u 4y ago
    Friend, firstly please don’t conflate Greeks with Greek governments. Secondly, yes Greek governments lied with some great help from Goldman Sachs. I promise you the Greek people found that all prices rose when the Euro was introduced. Finally, if German banks did the wrong thing, then perhaps your beef should be with them and with the German government that chose to bail them out and not let them fail. Because the “Greek bailouts” were indeed bailouts of the (mostly) German banks. As I said in another post, DB gambled, confident they would be bailed out - there was no moral hazard attached to their actions. They were right.
    - arisAlexis 4y ago
      In a democracy, 60 years of electing corrupt politicians mean Greeks or the Greek society or whatever you want to put it are guilty too along with all their corrupt governments. It runs deep in the society. I am Greek.
      - phs318u 4y ago
        Ok. But that works both ways. The Germans then are culpable for their government’s actions as are the Americans for theirs.
        4y ago

m000 4y ago

If you really want to turn the wheels of time, Siemens has been consistently involved in corruption in Greece since the 1920s. Governments and political alignments change. The constant factor is the bribing company. Also, FYI, the 2004 admission by finance minister Alogoskoufis was a total joke. Sadly for Greece, world politics is not the right place for this kind of jokes. The newly elected at the time ND government wanted an excuse to get a carte blanche to apply their financial agenda, so they invented one: Alogoskoufis ordered a retrospective "audit" where they switched from the standard Eurostat practice of budgeting defense contracts at the time of delivery to budgeting them at the time of signing [1]. This essentially shifted future expenses (many of them payable during his mandate) to the past, in order to make the previous PASOK administration appear disingenuous. Alogoskoufis essentially brought the country to world disrepute, so they could score a few cheap political points internally. And he was naive (stupid?) enough to believe that this would somehow only affect his political opponents and not the whole country [2]. [1] https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/84157/1/Greece%20%20a%20crisis%20in%20two%20level%20governance_cover%20._Final%20pdf.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/84157/1/Greece%20%20a%20crisis%20i... [2] https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/27649/alogoskoufis-expects-no-sanctions-for-past-deficits/ https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/27649/alogoskoufis-expe...

phs318u 4y ago

You and I are neighbours. I ask to borrow your chainsaw. You lend it. Next month you come knocking wanting it back. I point to the corner where it lays broken and shrug. Some time later I ask to borrow your lawn mower. You give it. When you ask for it back I regretfully explain that I had to hock it to pay off my bookie. Later still, I ask to borrow your Mercedes. You look at my front yard where a beat up old Toyota is sitting on blocks. I swear on my mother’s grave that I’ll look after your car and treat it just like my own. You then hand over the keys. There is (or should be) a moral hazard attached to lending irresponsibly. It was an open secret back then that the books were cooked to let Greece in. Certainly nothing in the history of the modern Greek state gave any confidence it would be different. Yet you would have us believe that Deutche Bank [0] were utterly naive and blind to history. That they were poor, unsuspecting, honest fools who didn’t have a clue what they were getting into. [0]. https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5-biggest-scandals/a-46510219 https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5-biggest-scandals/a-46...

looping__lui 4y ago
Greeks lied about their finances and took loans they couldn’t pay back. I don’t see how they are the victim in this discussion. Deutsche Bank or anybody else giving money to Greek is stupid imho. Lacking “street smart” for sure. Still I paid for this bullshit w/ my taxes and could t do anything about it. Do I dig this entire “oh poor Greek got screwed by Germany and Greek is the victim” nonsense? No. Greek lies and screws over their neighbors and then threatens to tank the entire EU / Euro over their bankruptcy: not a victim. Not to be trusted. Thats what you imply with your post: don’t trust the Greek, they lied in the past, they will lie in the future. No sympathy from my end.
- phs318u 4y ago
  Friend, firstly please don’t conflate Greeks with Greek governments. Secondly, yes Greek governments lied with some great help from Goldman Sachs. I promise you the Greek people found that all prices rose when the Euro was introduced. Finally, if German banks did the wrong thing, then perhaps your beef should be with them and with the German government that chose to bail them out and not let them fail. Because the “Greek bailouts” were indeed bailouts of the (mostly) German banks. As I said in another post, DB gambled, confident they would be bailed out - there was no moral hazard attached to their actions. They were right.
  - arisAlexis 4y ago
    In a democracy, 60 years of electing corrupt politicians mean Greeks or the Greek society or whatever you want to put it are guilty too along with all their corrupt governments. It runs deep in the society. I am Greek.
    - phs318u 4y ago
      Ok. But that works both ways. The Germans then are culpable for their government’s actions as are the Americans for theirs.
      - 4y ago