1. You aren't refuting the existence of honor or the fact that virtues of truthfulness and fairness had to be displayed in order to retain respect in the past.

1. You aren't refuting the existence of honor or the fact that virtues of truthfulness and fairness had to be displayed in order to retain respect in the past. You are just saying sociopaths still existed and still lied. The difference is that in the past they had to maintain an image of truthfulness, which limited their criminal activity. 2. No social system is perfect and the honor system of course was not either. However, if an American aristocrat in, say, 1830, was openly and publicly caught in a lie that was obviously selling out the nation, he would likely be convicted of something, or he would be publicly shamed, or he would receive vigilante reprisals. It wasn't a perfect system - honor systems by definition are not - but the reprisals demonstrate that there was a code of honor that went beyond the law. Honor by definition is a code of conduct with social reprisals that goes beyond the law. American social conduct was heavily policed by codes of honor. Maybe you think codes are stupid but nevertheless they had a tremendous influence on social behavior, as they do in any society where a code is implemented. Not everyone follows the code of honor, but those who blatently break the code are usually dishonored, shamed, ostracized, and face physical and finanical vigilante justice. The existence of this "street justice" worked as a deterrent so that the Dick Cheneys and Lloyd Blankfeins of the time had to work really hard to keep their skeletons in their closet. Trial by jury is only one step removed from mob justice. Individuals should be tried by the court of public opinion and punished by that court. If public opinion widely sees Blankfein as a treasonous fraudster, it is right that he be lynched. And if the courts are too corrupt to charge him then the duty falls to the general public. It's not naive to recognize that brutal and swift vigilante street justice keeps outrageous criminal activity in check. You want to paint me as some kind of utopian but I'm actually saying society needs more bloodshed, more violence, more vigilantism, more lynching, more mob rule. Mob rule and the judgment of the mob is the basis of democracy. Legal technicalities are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour "Even personal shame and humiliation was preferable to a tarnished honor or the hint of corruption. When Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton was accused of corruption for making secret payments to a man named James Reynolds, Hamilton revealed he had been set up and was paying blackmail to Reynolds following an affair with Mrs. Reynolds. Duels over honor were common in the era--Hamilton was killed in one, as was Hamilton's son." - http://conservapedia.com/Founding_Fathers http://conservapedia.com/Founding_Fathers “Nobody can acquire honor by doing what is wrong” - Thomas Jefferson "Some men who are not real men love other things about themselves, but the real man believes that his honor is dearer than his life; and a nation is merely all of us put together, and the nation's honor is dearer than the nation's comfort and the nation's peace and the nation's life itself." - Woodrow Wilson “No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave.” - Calvin Coolidge "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." - Winston Churchill "There are three classes of men; lovers of wisdom, lovers of honor, and lovers of gain. " - Plato "Who sows virtue reaps honor." - Leonardo da Vinci "I love the name of honor, more than I fear death. " - Julius Caesar "Leadership to me means duty, honor, country. It means character, and it means listening from time to time." - George W. Bush "The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. " - H. L. Mencken "You will never do anything in this world without courage. It is the greatest quality of the mind next to honor." - Aristotle "Life every man holds dear; but the dear man holds honor far more precious dear than life." - William Shakespeare