7 ms·

Pentagon gives Ukraine green light for drone strikes inside Russia

8 points by paulcarroty 4y ago

mitchbob 4y ago
Archived: https://archive.ph/wiSOQ https://archive.ph/wiSOQ
newaccount2021 4y ago
Normille 4y ago
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  > the Pentagon is running this war. The Pentagon is at least throttling Ukraine's response by controlling their supply of weapons. That's not "running", but it is "limiting".
  - sfusato 4y ago
    Raytheon CEO says the US provides real-time intel on the battlefield in Ukraine. “We see a Russian tank and that information gets fed to the Ukrainians…that’s something the Russians never contemplated.” The US is now in a direct confrontation with Russia. - US real-time satellite intelligence - US missiles and weapon systems - US operators and remote control - Ukrainian army bystanders How do you call that? Sure, not at the full might of the US capabilities, thus "limiting" in a sense, but it's pretty clear who's running the game from one side.
    - rat87 4y ago
      To anyone actually paying attention and not just buying into Russian propaganda that claims Ukraine is not a real sovereign country, it's Ukraine and their military that are running things and achieving miracles. Unlike in Russia they don't force the military to carry out unrealistic political goals, they delegate. And the Ukrainian military has transformed greatly in the last 8 years. https://time.com/6216213/ukraine-military-valeriy-zaluzhny/ https://time.com/6216213/ukraine-military-valeriy-zaluzhny/ https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres-what-i-saw-in-the-russian-and-ukrainian-armies/ https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres... The US is not in direct confrontation with Russia, that's merely propaganda from a Russia not willing to admit that it's losing to Ukraine.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      I mean, you might as well, by that standard, say Russia is running both sides of the war, since Russia is Ukraine’s leading supplier of new (to Ukraine) armored vehicles since the war started.
  - rsj_hn 4y ago
    I mean, the US government pays the salaries of Ukraine's government workers. They fund the Ukrainian GDP (which is basically zero without foreign aid). They supply 100% of new Ukrainian weapons (as domestic production of weapons is basically zero). You have tens of thousands of Polish troops trying to hold the line in Ukraine, and thousands of US, Canadian, Georgian mercenaries fighting there. The US and EU are 100% responsible for funding civil society and Ukraine's military. The Ukrainian government at this point is unable to produce or fund anything on its own. So in that case, you can be sure that the NATO is running the show, down to the company level. Ukrainian generals are there along for the ride, to sit in briefings and be told by NATO what their next plan of action will be. Between Zelensky's insistence that the information war take precedence over the war on the ground (e.g. he forbade Azov from surrendering in Mariupol until after the Eurovision Song contest, as he didn't want the optics of thousands of soldiers with their colorful historical tattoos interfere with the glory of Ukraine's victory in Eurovision. This resulted in hundreds of unnecessary deaths) -- and NATO micromanaging them -- I would not want to be a member of the Ukrainian general staff at the moment.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      I would like to see some sources for these claims if you have any.
    - Arnt 4y ago
      Domestic production is basically zero? Wasn't that the chief producer of weapons in the USSR, so what happened? And tens of thousands of Polish troops, really? And the US pays the salaries of Ukraine's government workers? Fairly big wow factor on all this, but citation needed.
      - rsj_hn 4y ago
        The USSR ended in 1991. But yes, in the USSR days, Ukraine was an industrial giant. Not all of Ukraine, the industry was concentrated in Donbas. Western Ukraine was always poor in relation to the Southeast and East. That's a big part of why there is so much radicalism in Galicia. Fun Fact: Since 1991, Ukraine has not built a single power plant, dam, electrical substation, locomotive, or major bridge. 100% of Ukraine's infrastructure is inherited from the Soviet era. But before the war, Ukraine did have industry. The war ended all that. Hard to have an industry when you have no electricity, your businesses are closed, your men are on the front and half your population has fled. We can ask a separate question, which is why hasn't Ukraine built more infrastructure after 1991 but before the war? Even before 2014? Well, what happened to Ukraine is the same thing that happened to Russia -- the government fell apart and western-backed oligarchs carved up the country and created an incredibly corrupt and non-productive society. But unlike Russia, there was no Ukrainian version of Putin to reign the oligarchs in, so they continued on that Yelstin economic path, leading Ukraine, which used to be one of the richest areas of the Soviet Union, to have 1/3 the GDP per capita of Russia now. Ukrainians, most of whom are intelligent and have college degrees, were earning $150 a month and dreaming of cleaning toilets in Germany. That's what happens when you adopt Western neoliberal "reforms". Even before the war, Ukraine was basically tied with Moldova (another post-Soviet republic that adopted Western reforms). https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...
sfusato 4y ago
So, it's a proxy war after all?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

8 points by paulcarroty 4y ago

mitchbob 4y ago

Archived: https://archive.ph/wiSOQ https://archive.ph/wiSOQ

newaccount2021 4y ago

Normille 4y ago

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> the Pentagon is running this war. The Pentagon is at least throttling Ukraine's response by controlling their supply of weapons. That's not "running", but it is "limiting".
- sfusato 4y ago
  Raytheon CEO says the US provides real-time intel on the battlefield in Ukraine. “We see a Russian tank and that information gets fed to the Ukrainians…that’s something the Russians never contemplated.” The US is now in a direct confrontation with Russia. - US real-time satellite intelligence - US missiles and weapon systems - US operators and remote control - Ukrainian army bystanders How do you call that? Sure, not at the full might of the US capabilities, thus "limiting" in a sense, but it's pretty clear who's running the game from one side.
  - rat87 4y ago
    To anyone actually paying attention and not just buying into Russian propaganda that claims Ukraine is not a real sovereign country, it's Ukraine and their military that are running things and achieving miracles. Unlike in Russia they don't force the military to carry out unrealistic political goals, they delegate. And the Ukrainian military has transformed greatly in the last 8 years. https://time.com/6216213/ukraine-military-valeriy-zaluzhny/ https://time.com/6216213/ukraine-military-valeriy-zaluzhny/ https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres-what-i-saw-in-the-russian-and-ukrainian-armies/ https://www.thebulwark.com/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-heres... The US is not in direct confrontation with Russia, that's merely propaganda from a Russia not willing to admit that it's losing to Ukraine.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    I mean, you might as well, by that standard, say Russia is running both sides of the war, since Russia is Ukraine’s leading supplier of new (to Ukraine) armored vehicles since the war started.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  I mean, the US government pays the salaries of Ukraine's government workers. They fund the Ukrainian GDP (which is basically zero without foreign aid). They supply 100% of new Ukrainian weapons (as domestic production of weapons is basically zero). You have tens of thousands of Polish troops trying to hold the line in Ukraine, and thousands of US, Canadian, Georgian mercenaries fighting there. The US and EU are 100% responsible for funding civil society and Ukraine's military. The Ukrainian government at this point is unable to produce or fund anything on its own. So in that case, you can be sure that the NATO is running the show, down to the company level. Ukrainian generals are there along for the ride, to sit in briefings and be told by NATO what their next plan of action will be. Between Zelensky's insistence that the information war take precedence over the war on the ground (e.g. he forbade Azov from surrendering in Mariupol until after the Eurovision Song contest, as he didn't want the optics of thousands of soldiers with their colorful historical tattoos interfere with the glory of Ukraine's victory in Eurovision. This resulted in hundreds of unnecessary deaths) -- and NATO micromanaging them -- I would not want to be a member of the Ukrainian general staff at the moment.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    I would like to see some sources for these claims if you have any.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Domestic production is basically zero? Wasn't that the chief producer of weapons in the USSR, so what happened? And tens of thousands of Polish troops, really? And the US pays the salaries of Ukraine's government workers? Fairly big wow factor on all this, but citation needed.
    - rsj_hn 4y ago
      The USSR ended in 1991. But yes, in the USSR days, Ukraine was an industrial giant. Not all of Ukraine, the industry was concentrated in Donbas. Western Ukraine was always poor in relation to the Southeast and East. That's a big part of why there is so much radicalism in Galicia. Fun Fact: Since 1991, Ukraine has not built a single power plant, dam, electrical substation, locomotive, or major bridge. 100% of Ukraine's infrastructure is inherited from the Soviet era. But before the war, Ukraine did have industry. The war ended all that. Hard to have an industry when you have no electricity, your businesses are closed, your men are on the front and half your population has fled. We can ask a separate question, which is why hasn't Ukraine built more infrastructure after 1991 but before the war? Even before 2014? Well, what happened to Ukraine is the same thing that happened to Russia -- the government fell apart and western-backed oligarchs carved up the country and created an incredibly corrupt and non-productive society. But unlike Russia, there was no Ukrainian version of Putin to reign the oligarchs in, so they continued on that Yelstin economic path, leading Ukraine, which used to be one of the richest areas of the Soviet Union, to have 1/3 the GDP per capita of Russia now. Ukrainians, most of whom are intelligent and have college degrees, were earning $150 a month and dreaming of cleaning toilets in Germany. That's what happens when you adopt Western neoliberal "reforms". Even before the war, Ukraine was basically tied with Moldova (another post-Soviet republic that adopted Western reforms). https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...

sfusato 4y ago

So, it's a proxy war after all?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]