5 ms·

Piggybacking off this Why does my Macbook Air which cost me A$1,499(!) have soldered, unupgradable RAM? I can SMD solder but it's still far too risky just to

by lmpdev 4y ago

Piggybacking off this Why does my Macbook Air which cost me A$1,499(!) have soldered, unupgradable RAM? I can SMD solder but it's still far too risky just to save a few hundred dollars

codedokode 4y ago
Because then you would be able to buy RAM several times cheaper than the one Apple wants to sell to you.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Not since the move to M1 SoCs where the RAM is soldered close to the CPU to minimize latency. Replaceable DIMMS are a technical no-go for such scenario.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    Then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      'Could' is the key word here. Of course they could just deaig and sell new motherboards with new chips for the older laptops chassis, like framework does, but knowing Apple, such user upgrades will not happen.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      But aren't the CPU, GPU and RAM the most expensive components on a MB, by far? I wouldn't expect such a board to be significantly less expensive than a complete one.
      - codedokode 4y ago
        I don't think so. I tried to look up the price of CPU in my laptop, but it is not sold separately (it is soldered on the motherboard). The desktop version of the same CPU, which has 50% higher score in Passmark benchmark, costs 25% of the price of laptop. RAM costs approximately 10% of the price. So RAM + CPU make only 35% of total price.
        vladvasiliu 4y ago
        Sure, but a desktop computer with 50% higher scores than a laptop with "laptop version of cpu" will cost less than the laptop (even counting a monitor), so I'm not sure that comparison holds. For example, an HP Elitedesk 800 mini (very small, so using SO-DIMMs and integrated everything - basically a non-portable laptop) will run you around 800 Euros, while the "equivalent" Elitebook 830/840 will run you 1500 euros. Specs are "similar", same generation mid-level i5, same RAM, same SSD. Main difference is the Elitedesk will have desktop-class CPU. Throw in a cheap HP screen (200 euro - Elitebook laptops have ridiculously bad screens, so that's fair), and you get to 2/3 the price of the laptop.
jeroenhd 4y ago
In modern DDR5 settings the RAM speeds of DIMM slots are actually significantly slower than the RAM speeds of soldered chips. Modern chips are hugely dependent on RAM speeds for optimum performance and with the way the M1/M2 platform evolved from smartphones and tablets where everything is close to the CPU/GPU and soldered down I'd expect their chips to be optimised for this layout. Apple is blatantly anti upgrade (just see the SSD situation on their desktop offerings) but that's not the only reason they solder stuff down. I believe Dell is working on a new, open design for PCBs where this performance problem is smaller or even nonexistent. You lose the ability to do partial upgrades with the new system but gain the performance impact that is driving some companies to soldering down RAM for performance reasons. For devices with slower RAM there is no excuse. Just an upsell to make you pay $100 for 8GiB of RAM.
- codedokode 4y ago
  I would prefer to have 32 Gb of cheap "slow" 3200 MT/s RAM rather than 4 or 8 Gb of soldered 4300 MT/s LPDDR4 RAM. The increase in speed isn't worth decrease in size. Also, in cheap laptops soldered RAM often has lower speeds, same as replaceable one. And if RAM has to be soldered, then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable so that you can upgrade it later without buying a new device. Obviously, manufacturers don't want that.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    > And if RAM has to be soldered, then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable so that you can upgrade it later without buying a new device. Obviously, manufacturers don't want that. Dell is on a new replaceable RAM standard. It's already been designed for their own products, but they're working with JEDEC to make it a standard: https://www.storagereview.com/review/dell-camm-dram-the-new-laptop-standard https://www.storagereview.com/review/dell-camm-dram-the-new-... I also prefer upgradeable laptops over bleeding edge performance but the reality is that most consumers never upgrade their laptops (and if they do, only to add more storage). Until a large amount of customers start factoring repairability and upgradeability into their purchasing decisions, we'll only see soldered down RAM.
- 4y ago

by lmpdev 4y ago

Piggybacking off this Why does my Macbook Air which cost me A$1,499(!) have soldered, unupgradable RAM? I can SMD solder but it's still far too risky just to save a few hundred dollars

codedokode 4y ago

Because then you would be able to buy RAM several times cheaper than the one Apple wants to sell to you.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Not since the move to M1 SoCs where the RAM is soldered close to the CPU to minimize latency. Replaceable DIMMS are a technical no-go for such scenario.
- codedokode 4y ago
  Then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    'Could' is the key word here. Of course they could just deaig and sell new motherboards with new chips for the older laptops chassis, like framework does, but knowing Apple, such user upgrades will not happen.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    But aren't the CPU, GPU and RAM the most expensive components on a MB, by far? I wouldn't expect such a board to be significantly less expensive than a complete one.
    - codedokode 4y ago
      I don't think so. I tried to look up the price of CPU in my laptop, but it is not sold separately (it is soldered on the motherboard). The desktop version of the same CPU, which has 50% higher score in Passmark benchmark, costs 25% of the price of laptop. RAM costs approximately 10% of the price. So RAM + CPU make only 35% of total price.
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        Sure, but a desktop computer with 50% higher scores than a laptop with "laptop version of cpu" will cost less than the laptop (even counting a monitor), so I'm not sure that comparison holds. For example, an HP Elitedesk 800 mini (very small, so using SO-DIMMs and integrated everything - basically a non-portable laptop) will run you around 800 Euros, while the "equivalent" Elitebook 830/840 will run you 1500 euros. Specs are "similar", same generation mid-level i5, same RAM, same SSD. Main difference is the Elitedesk will have desktop-class CPU. Throw in a cheap HP screen (200 euro - Elitebook laptops have ridiculously bad screens, so that's fair), and you get to 2/3 the price of the laptop.

jeroenhd 4y ago

In modern DDR5 settings the RAM speeds of DIMM slots are actually significantly slower than the RAM speeds of soldered chips. Modern chips are hugely dependent on RAM speeds for optimum performance and with the way the M1/M2 platform evolved from smartphones and tablets where everything is close to the CPU/GPU and soldered down I'd expect their chips to be optimised for this layout. Apple is blatantly anti upgrade (just see the SSD situation on their desktop offerings) but that's not the only reason they solder stuff down. I believe Dell is working on a new, open design for PCBs where this performance problem is smaller or even nonexistent. You lose the ability to do partial upgrades with the new system but gain the performance impact that is driving some companies to soldering down RAM for performance reasons. For devices with slower RAM there is no excuse. Just an upsell to make you pay $100 for 8GiB of RAM.

codedokode 4y ago
I would prefer to have 32 Gb of cheap "slow" 3200 MT/s RAM rather than 4 or 8 Gb of soldered 4300 MT/s LPDDR4 RAM. The increase in speed isn't worth decrease in size. Also, in cheap laptops soldered RAM often has lower speeds, same as replaceable one. And if RAM has to be soldered, then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable so that you can upgrade it later without buying a new device. Obviously, manufacturers don't want that.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  > And if RAM has to be soldered, then the board with CPU, GPU and RAM could be made replaceable so that you can upgrade it later without buying a new device. Obviously, manufacturers don't want that. Dell is on a new replaceable RAM standard. It's already been designed for their own products, but they're working with JEDEC to make it a standard: https://www.storagereview.com/review/dell-camm-dram-the-new-laptop-standard https://www.storagereview.com/review/dell-camm-dram-the-new-... I also prefer upgradeable laptops over bleeding edge performance but the reality is that most consumers never upgrade their laptops (and if they do, only to add more storage). Until a large amount of customers start factoring repairability and upgradeability into their purchasing decisions, we'll only see soldered down RAM.
4y ago