6 ms·

I just love how the grandstanding of European green-progressives of the past, when they positioned themselves as champions of privacy, completely flipped once t

I just love how the grandstanding of European green-progressives of the past, when they positioned themselves as champions of privacy, completely flipped once they came to power. "Name one practical reason to pay amounts higher than 1.000€ in cash." – unknown progressive

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> "Name one practical reason to pay amounts higher than 1.000€ in cash." it's 10.000 euros, you're off by an order of magnitude. Can you name one practical reason to pay more than 10k cash?
- merinofg 4y ago
  He is not. In Spain, for instance, it is already illegal to pay with cash costs above 1.000€ in any commerce. You are forced to buy it using a credit/debit card.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    Spain is in the EU, but Spain is not the EU. So he is. But then again, what's the practical reason to pay more than 1k cash?
    - cypress66 4y ago
      Because the opposite (banks) means the government can freeze your funds, like they did in Canada to protesters.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        The limit is for a single transaction, not for your entire life. If they can freeze your money in the bank, they can also freeze the cash you keep stashed in your room. paranoia is stupid. I am all in favour for protester not living tracks, it doesn't involve money transactions over 10k in cash though. I don't see how the two things relate.
    - pfortuny 4y ago
      I do not want the government or the bank to know that I am buying a motorbike, a car, a washing machine or ten dozen frying pans. Just that. If the bank knows, the government does.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        The government knows that you own a motorbike, you can't go around with an unregistered vehicle, you have to sign documents that prove the transfer of ownership, you also have to pay insurance on it, it's mandatory where I live in Europe. It makes sense: if I buy a motorbike from you using cash and nobody knows about it, when I am going to rob a bank with it, the police would come knocking at your door. Would you like that just to let me use cash instead of any other system available because we are normal people that live in societies not in a lawless imaginary city in a western movie (west was not lawless, properties where already registered 4 thousands years ago by Egyptians, it's nothing new) Simpler yet, if the police stops you and there isn't your name on the certificate of ownership , you have to justify why is that. Again, it makes complete sense. It could have been stolen and you could be the thief. A washing machine costs 250 euros, you can pay it in cash. The limit is 10k, it's 40 washing machines. The washing machine comes with a warranty, warranty is valid only if you put your name on it. Only a fool would renounce to 2 years warranty to pay cash and not let the government know that they do laundry, like literally everybody else, I'm quite sure the government doesn't care if you own a washing machine, but then again I live in Europe, probably the CIA does and it's a big deal there. I really don't understand how people feel comfortable going around with thousands of euros in cash in their pockets to buy stuff that they could have comfortably and safely bought from their couch using a free and immediate bank transfer that guarantees both parties against fraud, and theft and that have no handling costs. American paranoia about government will be the worst heritage of these last two decades. But probably even worse is the idea that your freedom means I have to pay the price for it. Wanna pay a house or a car in cash, without any record of the transaction? Go buy it from a criminal, because I am not selling it to you. Nobody would. Unless they are being paid to accept all that cash in one transaction.
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        Depending on where you live, if the bank knows, a large of parties from the public and private sector knows.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      > more than 1k cash High end electronic equipment, for example. Or do you by personal devices linking them to your name?
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        Your personal devices are already linked to your name. Do you really believe you are anonymous? SIM cards are not, for example, since forever here in Europe. warranty certificates must contain all your personal data to be valid. You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Why? what's the deal with that laptop, what's the reason to keep it secret? Suddenly your secrecy it's much more interesting for the shop owner than you paying with a bank transfer or credit card like any other person would do and not raise any suspicion. If I was them I would alert someone, in case you'd do something illegal with it, just to be on the safe side. See? even if you are a criminal using cash just for the sake of using cash it's stupid. Most shops don't even accept large amount of money in cash, it's dangerous for them and costs them a lot more to handle and keep safe. even many bank offices or postal office don't keep cash to avoid being robbed. It's for employees safety.
        mdp2021 4y ago
        > Your personal devices are already linked to your name It is hoped that nobody is so stupid to try that. > Do you really believe you are anonymous? I radically believe on that right of so being. > You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Very certainly. > Why? Because that is what a Man does. > what's the reason to keep it secret Basicmost principle. > interesting Monkeys surely are intrigued when they see men acting: they cannot understand. If they had been part of a Civilization, they would know that a Man does not concede on the side of privacy. > even if you are a criminal Very obvious, it is expected that criminals be on FB and Tw and smile at Sino-Thatcherian cameras etc. Nothing new, it is part of the scheme: criminals have something to hide; Men have everything to hide; subjects have nothing to hide.
        peoplefromibiza 4y ago
- ilyt 4y ago
  Car, house, selling/buying land etc. Mostly coz many banks take % cut on big money tranfers so taking it out and just giving it to someone in a bag is sometimes tens of thousands cheaper
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Car, house, selling/buying land etc. so you would buy a house in cash? How much will the personal protection cost? I don't think I would accept to sell my house to soneone who pretends to pay cash, I wouldn't want to deal with that much money and all the risks involved, including the fact that there's no guarantees that the money is actually not fake. Besides, money transfer is so cheap that it hasn't been an issue since at least 30 years ago. We are taking about Europe here. If you knew someone who buys houses in cash, can you swear your first question would not be "where did that much money in cash comes from?"
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Sizeable withdrawals aren't exactly free. Especially if you go unannounced
    - ahtihn 4y ago
      That depends on the country and bank. I can withdraw any amount of money for free.
  - bonzini 4y ago
    Not in Europe. Bought a car last year, transferring the money was €0.50.
  - acatton 4y ago
    This doesn't apply to most EU countries. (Nuance: I'm not well versed in the legal system of countries part of the Bucharest Nine group, hence my "most") In most of the EU, buying land and houses is done through a notary services. Depending on the country, you either do a SEPA transfer directly to the notary, and they then send it to the other party. Or, in other countries, you do the SEPA transfer to the other party, and then the notary approves the ownership-transfer once both parties confirm the money-transfer is complete. Estate ownership is not proved by a piece of paper like with American "titles", they're backed with government-kept records, which only a notary can change. (and that's what you pay them for, in addition to taxes) Nothing is happening in cash, because many EU governments want to be able to follow the money used to buy estate. Notaries usually report the transfer to the tax authorities. If the money cannot be justified, the notary must cancel the transaction, and some financial investigators will follow up. There are no fees, as opposed to what many other HN commenters says. Because if your bank has fees for SEPA transfers, you can always switch to virtual-cross-EU-online banks which have no fees for SEPA transfers. However, you will be notary fees, which most of it is just plain tax.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > Can you name one practical reason to pay more than 10k cash? Have you ever bought a used car? Or played relatively high limit at a casino? It’s perfectly normal to take 6 figures cash to a casino if you’re playing high stakes poker, for example. And there are plenty of other reasons.
  - namdnay 4y ago
    > Have you ever bought a used car? A cashiers check costs what? 10, 20 euros? And we’re talking about how it can impact real people here, not the 0.1% who gamble 10 years’ minimum wage at the casino in one evening
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      > A cashiers check costs what? 10, 20 euros? Virtually nobody in Europe uses checks (in my country they are explicitly banned as a tender). It’s either cash or a bank transfer, and for such purchases, most people really prefer cash. > And we’re talking about how it can impact real people here, not the 0.1% who gamble 10 years’ minimum wage at the casino in one evening Most professional poker players are staked. They aren’t gambling with their money. It’s a job. A high risk, high reward job, but still a job. And it was just an example, and a perfectly valid at that.
      - namdnay 4y ago
        Cashiers cheques, not personal ones. And for pro poker players, they can just wire the money to the casino Honestly I don’t see any moment in my life in a developed economy where I or anyone around me has needed more than a few hundred in cash
        sgjohnson 4y ago
        > Cashiers cheques, not personal ones. Yes. Virtually nobody uses them in Europe.
- ahtihn 4y ago
  Buying a used car.
  - B8MGHCBekDuRi 4y ago
    in cash? for more than 10k? if someone has 10k cash they will not buy a used car, they will buy a new car, pay it in the next 5 years 200 euros a month and then sell it to a used car reseller. No sane minded person would sell their more than 10k worth car in cash to an unknown party who shows up with a bag full of 50 euros bills. BTW this position comes from people who regularly see cash as a form of freedom from oppression and support the use of crypto, which is digital assets that cannot be bought in cash. So the options are logically 2: it's people that are not right in their mind or it's people who love cash because they don't pay taxes. 10k in cash is an unreasonable amount of money for 99.999% of the population. I am an investor in my country in bars and restaurants and we're so happy that younger generations virtually use zero cash. It freed me and my employees from having to deal with cash, bank deposits, handling and transferring money safely, theft, counterfeit money and many many other issues that the stone age money brings. It also made it much easier to handle payments, I can tell the bank to pay and they will, instantaneously, while before we obviously used the money from the cash register to pay, to spend the cash money and avoid going to the bank to deposit it and had to trust the delivery guy, who changed frequently, to actually not steal the money and disappear (it happened several times over the past 25 years). It made possible for young people, especially girls, to go around safely with no money on them and still live a full life while also keeping much more control on their expenses.
    - ahtihn 4y ago
      There's no better way than cash for large transactions between private persons. All the apps have limits of a few thousand and bank transfers take a business day (in Switzerland). No one wants to transfer 5 figures to a random person and wait a day before taking possession of the car. Sellers don't want to give the car before the money is in their account. So cash it is. Used cars go for way more than 10k. I bought my current car for 35k used. If you go to used car dealer, the average price is nowhere near 10k.
mcv 4y ago
They want privacy for regular people, accountability for the rich and powerful.
- helloworld11 4y ago
  This is absolutely laughable. The very opposite is the case: Wealthy, well connected people, politicians and businesses already can and do transfer and launder money on industrial scales, with only minimal worry about rules like this one, which doesn't even really affect their ability to launder or evade. They can instead use armies of lawyers, accountants, political connections for the high levels at which their laundering and tax evading happens. And if those fail, they can then simply pay whatever fines as a cost of doing business while minimizing convictions of real, actual people behind a business structure. This cash prohibition rule on the other hand turns many average people across the EU, possibly millions of them in total into potential lawbreakers just because any number of normally, morally non-criminal random circumstances or worries about digital finances being frozen make them want to have and use cash for modestly large transactions. All of this aside from the flawed reasoning that the state has an innate right to completely strip away financial privacy for the sake of taxes or KYC. It should not have such a right. Tax collection and financial auditing are contextual and imperfect necessities in the context of imperfect government and society, they should not be treated as divine rights of power, to ever be increased without recourse against them.
  - mcv 4y ago
    > modestly large transactions. This is for transactions over 10k. That's not "moderately large". The only time most people make transactions that size is for buying a house, car or life insurance. Those are not transactions that normal people do in cash, and all of them already require significant paperwork anyway. > All of this aside from the flawed reasoning that the state has an innate right to completely strip away financial privacy for the sake of taxes or KYC. It should not have such a right. Tax collection and financial auditing are contextual and imperfect necessities in the context of imperfect government and society, they should not be treated as divine rights of power, to ever be increased without recourse against them. Is that a fancy way of saying tax evasion should be legal? Any transaction of that size represents a significant piece of income for someone. I strongly support the right to privacy, but I'm not naive about the need to fight money laundering or collect taxes.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> "Name one practical reason to pay amounts higher than 1.000€ in cash." it's 10.000 euros, you're off by an order of magnitude. Can you name one practical reason to pay more than 10k cash?

merinofg 4y ago
He is not. In Spain, for instance, it is already illegal to pay with cash costs above 1.000€ in any commerce. You are forced to buy it using a credit/debit card.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  Spain is in the EU, but Spain is not the EU. So he is. But then again, what's the practical reason to pay more than 1k cash?
  - cypress66 4y ago
    Because the opposite (banks) means the government can freeze your funds, like they did in Canada to protesters.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      The limit is for a single transaction, not for your entire life. If they can freeze your money in the bank, they can also freeze the cash you keep stashed in your room. paranoia is stupid. I am all in favour for protester not living tracks, it doesn't involve money transactions over 10k in cash though. I don't see how the two things relate.
  - pfortuny 4y ago
    I do not want the government or the bank to know that I am buying a motorbike, a car, a washing machine or ten dozen frying pans. Just that. If the bank knows, the government does.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      The government knows that you own a motorbike, you can't go around with an unregistered vehicle, you have to sign documents that prove the transfer of ownership, you also have to pay insurance on it, it's mandatory where I live in Europe. It makes sense: if I buy a motorbike from you using cash and nobody knows about it, when I am going to rob a bank with it, the police would come knocking at your door. Would you like that just to let me use cash instead of any other system available because we are normal people that live in societies not in a lawless imaginary city in a western movie (west was not lawless, properties where already registered 4 thousands years ago by Egyptians, it's nothing new) Simpler yet, if the police stops you and there isn't your name on the certificate of ownership , you have to justify why is that. Again, it makes complete sense. It could have been stolen and you could be the thief. A washing machine costs 250 euros, you can pay it in cash. The limit is 10k, it's 40 washing machines. The washing machine comes with a warranty, warranty is valid only if you put your name on it. Only a fool would renounce to 2 years warranty to pay cash and not let the government know that they do laundry, like literally everybody else, I'm quite sure the government doesn't care if you own a washing machine, but then again I live in Europe, probably the CIA does and it's a big deal there. I really don't understand how people feel comfortable going around with thousands of euros in cash in their pockets to buy stuff that they could have comfortably and safely bought from their couch using a free and immediate bank transfer that guarantees both parties against fraud, and theft and that have no handling costs. American paranoia about government will be the worst heritage of these last two decades. But probably even worse is the idea that your freedom means I have to pay the price for it. Wanna pay a house or a car in cash, without any record of the transaction? Go buy it from a criminal, because I am not selling it to you. Nobody would. Unless they are being paid to accept all that cash in one transaction.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      Depending on where you live, if the bank knows, a large of parties from the public and private sector knows.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    > more than 1k cash High end electronic equipment, for example. Or do you by personal devices linking them to your name?
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      Your personal devices are already linked to your name. Do you really believe you are anonymous? SIM cards are not, for example, since forever here in Europe. warranty certificates must contain all your personal data to be valid. You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Why? what's the deal with that laptop, what's the reason to keep it secret? Suddenly your secrecy it's much more interesting for the shop owner than you paying with a bank transfer or credit card like any other person would do and not raise any suspicion. If I was them I would alert someone, in case you'd do something illegal with it, just to be on the safe side. See? even if you are a criminal using cash just for the sake of using cash it's stupid. Most shops don't even accept large amount of money in cash, it's dangerous for them and costs them a lot more to handle and keep safe. even many bank offices or postal office don't keep cash to avoid being robbed. It's for employees safety.
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        > Your personal devices are already linked to your name It is hoped that nobody is so stupid to try that. > Do you really believe you are anonymous? I radically believe on that right of so being. > You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Very certainly. > Why? Because that is what a Man does. > what's the reason to keep it secret Basicmost principle. > interesting Monkeys surely are intrigued when they see men acting: they cannot understand. If they had been part of a Civilization, they would know that a Man does not concede on the side of privacy. > even if you are a criminal Very obvious, it is expected that criminals be on FB and Tw and smile at Sino-Thatcherian cameras etc. Nothing new, it is part of the scheme: criminals have something to hide; Men have everything to hide; subjects have nothing to hide.
        peoplefromibiza 4y ago
ilyt 4y ago
Car, house, selling/buying land etc. Mostly coz many banks take % cut on big money tranfers so taking it out and just giving it to someone in a bag is sometimes tens of thousands cheaper
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Car, house, selling/buying land etc. so you would buy a house in cash? How much will the personal protection cost? I don't think I would accept to sell my house to soneone who pretends to pay cash, I wouldn't want to deal with that much money and all the risks involved, including the fact that there's no guarantees that the money is actually not fake. Besides, money transfer is so cheap that it hasn't been an issue since at least 30 years ago. We are taking about Europe here. If you knew someone who buys houses in cash, can you swear your first question would not be "where did that much money in cash comes from?"
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Sizeable withdrawals aren't exactly free. Especially if you go unannounced
  - ahtihn 4y ago
    That depends on the country and bank. I can withdraw any amount of money for free.
- bonzini 4y ago
  Not in Europe. Bought a car last year, transferring the money was €0.50.
- acatton 4y ago
  This doesn't apply to most EU countries. (Nuance: I'm not well versed in the legal system of countries part of the Bucharest Nine group, hence my "most") In most of the EU, buying land and houses is done through a notary services. Depending on the country, you either do a SEPA transfer directly to the notary, and they then send it to the other party. Or, in other countries, you do the SEPA transfer to the other party, and then the notary approves the ownership-transfer once both parties confirm the money-transfer is complete. Estate ownership is not proved by a piece of paper like with American "titles", they're backed with government-kept records, which only a notary can change. (and that's what you pay them for, in addition to taxes) Nothing is happening in cash, because many EU governments want to be able to follow the money used to buy estate. Notaries usually report the transfer to the tax authorities. If the money cannot be justified, the notary must cancel the transaction, and some financial investigators will follow up. There are no fees, as opposed to what many other HN commenters says. Because if your bank has fees for SEPA transfers, you can always switch to virtual-cross-EU-online banks which have no fees for SEPA transfers. However, you will be notary fees, which most of it is just plain tax.
sgjohnson 4y ago
> Can you name one practical reason to pay more than 10k cash? Have you ever bought a used car? Or played relatively high limit at a casino? It’s perfectly normal to take 6 figures cash to a casino if you’re playing high stakes poker, for example. And there are plenty of other reasons.
- namdnay 4y ago
  > Have you ever bought a used car? A cashiers check costs what? 10, 20 euros? And we’re talking about how it can impact real people here, not the 0.1% who gamble 10 years’ minimum wage at the casino in one evening
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    > A cashiers check costs what? 10, 20 euros? Virtually nobody in Europe uses checks (in my country they are explicitly banned as a tender). It’s either cash or a bank transfer, and for such purchases, most people really prefer cash. > And we’re talking about how it can impact real people here, not the 0.1% who gamble 10 years’ minimum wage at the casino in one evening Most professional poker players are staked. They aren’t gambling with their money. It’s a job. A high risk, high reward job, but still a job. And it was just an example, and a perfectly valid at that.
    - namdnay 4y ago
      Cashiers cheques, not personal ones. And for pro poker players, they can just wire the money to the casino Honestly I don’t see any moment in my life in a developed economy where I or anyone around me has needed more than a few hundred in cash
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        > Cashiers cheques, not personal ones. Yes. Virtually nobody uses them in Europe.
ahtihn 4y ago
Buying a used car.
- B8MGHCBekDuRi 4y ago
  in cash? for more than 10k? if someone has 10k cash they will not buy a used car, they will buy a new car, pay it in the next 5 years 200 euros a month and then sell it to a used car reseller. No sane minded person would sell their more than 10k worth car in cash to an unknown party who shows up with a bag full of 50 euros bills. BTW this position comes from people who regularly see cash as a form of freedom from oppression and support the use of crypto, which is digital assets that cannot be bought in cash. So the options are logically 2: it's people that are not right in their mind or it's people who love cash because they don't pay taxes. 10k in cash is an unreasonable amount of money for 99.999% of the population. I am an investor in my country in bars and restaurants and we're so happy that younger generations virtually use zero cash. It freed me and my employees from having to deal with cash, bank deposits, handling and transferring money safely, theft, counterfeit money and many many other issues that the stone age money brings. It also made it much easier to handle payments, I can tell the bank to pay and they will, instantaneously, while before we obviously used the money from the cash register to pay, to spend the cash money and avoid going to the bank to deposit it and had to trust the delivery guy, who changed frequently, to actually not steal the money and disappear (it happened several times over the past 25 years). It made possible for young people, especially girls, to go around safely with no money on them and still live a full life while also keeping much more control on their expenses.
  - ahtihn 4y ago
    There's no better way than cash for large transactions between private persons. All the apps have limits of a few thousand and bank transfers take a business day (in Switzerland). No one wants to transfer 5 figures to a random person and wait a day before taking possession of the car. Sellers don't want to give the car before the money is in their account. So cash it is. Used cars go for way more than 10k. I bought my current car for 35k used. If you go to used car dealer, the average price is nowhere near 10k.

mcv 4y ago

They want privacy for regular people, accountability for the rich and powerful.

helloworld11 4y ago
This is absolutely laughable. The very opposite is the case: Wealthy, well connected people, politicians and businesses already can and do transfer and launder money on industrial scales, with only minimal worry about rules like this one, which doesn't even really affect their ability to launder or evade. They can instead use armies of lawyers, accountants, political connections for the high levels at which their laundering and tax evading happens. And if those fail, they can then simply pay whatever fines as a cost of doing business while minimizing convictions of real, actual people behind a business structure. This cash prohibition rule on the other hand turns many average people across the EU, possibly millions of them in total into potential lawbreakers just because any number of normally, morally non-criminal random circumstances or worries about digital finances being frozen make them want to have and use cash for modestly large transactions. All of this aside from the flawed reasoning that the state has an innate right to completely strip away financial privacy for the sake of taxes or KYC. It should not have such a right. Tax collection and financial auditing are contextual and imperfect necessities in the context of imperfect government and society, they should not be treated as divine rights of power, to ever be increased without recourse against them.
- mcv 4y ago
  > modestly large transactions. This is for transactions over 10k. That's not "moderately large". The only time most people make transactions that size is for buying a house, car or life insurance. Those are not transactions that normal people do in cash, and all of them already require significant paperwork anyway. > All of this aside from the flawed reasoning that the state has an innate right to completely strip away financial privacy for the sake of taxes or KYC. It should not have such a right. Tax collection and financial auditing are contextual and imperfect necessities in the context of imperfect government and society, they should not be treated as divine rights of power, to ever be increased without recourse against them. Is that a fancy way of saying tax evasion should be legal? Any transaction of that size represents a significant piece of income for someone. I strongly support the right to privacy, but I'm not naive about the need to fight money laundering or collect taxes.