5 ms·

Since Paul wrote that, people have made so many more things part of their identity, including JavaScript which he points out in the essay was not a particularly

Since Paul wrote that, people have made so many more things part of their identity, including JavaScript which he points out in the essay was not a particularly identity-charged topic in 2009. With the rise of the frameworks, it has become an identity-charged topic with JS devs now segregated into tribes that insist on using their preferred framework for every webapp they build. It's not about assessing the right tool for the job based on evidence or metrics, it's about a belief system that the tribe's preferred framework is always the right tool for the job. Ultimately I think Paul was right and I think about this essay a lot. The best solution is to make as few things part of your identity as possible. For JS devs, that means you should be more willing to use a different framework from time to time or no framework at all. Decide what to use based on an objective assessment of what the right tool for the job is, not what's trendy in your tribe.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
RajT88 4y ago
In tech, people ascribe you an identity as much as you claim one yourself. When I am not around, I have been described to people as "A DevOps guy" or "A Network Guy". People then treat me accordingly. But, being human (or an approximation thereof), I am not just one thing.
- throw827474737 4y ago
  Come on, the dentist is also the dentist... taking those titles to personally imo is a too big identitiy to start with. We know you are all individuals ;)
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    Yes, we're all individuals! Obligatory Monty Python scene: https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Better analogy might be the soccer midfielder. All playing a similar game but experts in different positions.
- doubled112 4y ago
  I've always tried to go with (or steer toward) something like "a problem solver". I just like to solve problems. Sometimes it's builds and deploys, sometimes it's the network, and sometimes it's the car in the driveway. Give me a few, I'll figure something out.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    "Problem solver" is so vague as to be meaningless. I'm pretty sure literally all human action could be characterized as problem solving.
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
      Actually, "problem solver" is a specific occupation known to anyone who ever watched any criminal TV show.
      - doubled112 4y ago
        You know? When I say "problem solver", it might be more like that than I realized. Nothing criminal, of course, but in the sense that I'll get the job done whatever it takes.
    - doubled112 4y ago
      Maybe I'm keeping the wrong people around, but no, not everybody is solving problems. Many seem to be unable or unwilling to figure out anything that is outside of their happy path through the day.
      - philwelch 4y ago
        If I take a nap, I’m solving the problem of being tired. If I go grocery shopping, I’m solving the problem of not having food in my house. If I drink water, I’m solving the problem of being thirsty. If I play a video game, I’m solving the problem of being bored. All human activity is problem solving.
- kossTKR 4y ago
  I often skip the fact that i work in tech in certain circles in the beginning. Instead i'm just a business consultant, or working with project management. Probably a bit cowardlike but people really love to put other people in boxes and for a lot of people working in tech means "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" as an example. And not that there is anything wrong with being that type of person (i also have some of those traits) there is very limited elasticity in peoples image of you after you've told what you work with, at least in Scandinavia where "you are your career". I have a friend who works on movie productions and everyone always seem to find it amazing and extrapolate all kinds of positive stuff about him, while the opposite can happen with tech and unless i also make some weird underhanded disclaimers like "I'm actually also really into x genre of music and have played since i was a kid" or "well i actually love reading obscure literature", "i actually really like travelling, that's why this career was so great for me" people will just assume i do nothing besides program 24/7 - hyperbole yes but still. Can anyone relate?
  - RajT88 4y ago
    > "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" Hello!
  - intelVISA 4y ago
    > "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" as an example. for once I'm glad to be the opposite to the usual trope.. but I feel you it is tiring to be interrogated over the location of my non-existent funko-pop cache just because I write code. Even saying "I swear I don't write Js" doesn't protect you these days.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > In tech, people ascribe you an identity as much as you claim one yourself. Indeed that is true of most kinds of identity. People will ascribe you racial and gender identities which may or may not match the ones you wish to claim for example.
strken 4y ago
I think with JS frameworks, it's more a case of moving house using the hatchback parked in your driveway, instead of going out and buying a brand new truck. Or hammering tent pegs with the side of a rock instead of bringing a hammer with you. There's a cost to buying and learning new tools.
- kethinov 4y ago
  That would be an easier argument to accept if people were more honest about it. Or honest with themselves about it and more self-aware that that's really what it's about: not wanting to learn new things or the perception (real or otherwise) of lacking the time to. But too often instead it seems like people rationalize the desire to avoid learning new things by making pseudo arguments that the thing they already like is the best option when in reality it's mostly just a post hoc justification of a preconceived notion.
yobbo 4y ago
> a belief system that the tribe's preferred framework is always the right tool for the job. It's not really about "the right tool for the job". It's about protecting and promoting the tribe's investment.
simne 4y ago
JavaScript is just wrong example. It very early has become uber-tool, when appear first specification of ECMA-script (essentially same gramma, but was universal language not tied to eny platform or specifics). But if talk about business, I remember Ford's phrase: "develop product, which will fit expectations of 80% of your clients; 10% will just change mind; 10% will pay additional money for customization".
naet 4y ago
I think there's an industry trend or career pressure towards being a member of a JS "tribe". Companies don't believe in people learning new technologies, instead they only want people with lots of experience in their specific framework and nothing more. I've used React, Vue, Elm, Vanilla JS, and some legacy JQuery in production over my last three years of work (along with Next, Nuxt, Gatsby, Hugo, and many others). I thought that would make me a well rounded candidate with an understanding of different trade offs and an ability to pick up new things. Now that I'm looking for a new job though it seems like most places are looking to hire someone 100% React dev, and my history of framework diversity has become more of a liability than an asset somehow.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

RajT88 4y ago

In tech, people ascribe you an identity as much as you claim one yourself. When I am not around, I have been described to people as "A DevOps guy" or "A Network Guy". People then treat me accordingly. But, being human (or an approximation thereof), I am not just one thing.

throw827474737 4y ago
Come on, the dentist is also the dentist... taking those titles to personally imo is a too big identitiy to start with. We know you are all individuals ;)
- cableshaft 4y ago
  Yes, we're all individuals! Obligatory Monty Python scene: https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Better analogy might be the soccer midfielder. All playing a similar game but experts in different positions.
doubled112 4y ago
I've always tried to go with (or steer toward) something like "a problem solver". I just like to solve problems. Sometimes it's builds and deploys, sometimes it's the network, and sometimes it's the car in the driveway. Give me a few, I'll figure something out.
- philwelch 4y ago
  "Problem solver" is so vague as to be meaningless. I'm pretty sure literally all human action could be characterized as problem solving.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
    Actually, "problem solver" is a specific occupation known to anyone who ever watched any criminal TV show.
    - doubled112 4y ago
      You know? When I say "problem solver", it might be more like that than I realized. Nothing criminal, of course, but in the sense that I'll get the job done whatever it takes.
  - doubled112 4y ago
    Maybe I'm keeping the wrong people around, but no, not everybody is solving problems. Many seem to be unable or unwilling to figure out anything that is outside of their happy path through the day.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      If I take a nap, I’m solving the problem of being tired. If I go grocery shopping, I’m solving the problem of not having food in my house. If I drink water, I’m solving the problem of being thirsty. If I play a video game, I’m solving the problem of being bored. All human activity is problem solving.
kossTKR 4y ago
I often skip the fact that i work in tech in certain circles in the beginning. Instead i'm just a business consultant, or working with project management. Probably a bit cowardlike but people really love to put other people in boxes and for a lot of people working in tech means "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" as an example. And not that there is anything wrong with being that type of person (i also have some of those traits) there is very limited elasticity in peoples image of you after you've told what you work with, at least in Scandinavia where "you are your career". I have a friend who works on movie productions and everyone always seem to find it amazing and extrapolate all kinds of positive stuff about him, while the opposite can happen with tech and unless i also make some weird underhanded disclaimers like "I'm actually also really into x genre of music and have played since i was a kid" or "well i actually love reading obscure literature", "i actually really like travelling, that's why this career was so great for me" people will just assume i do nothing besides program 24/7 - hyperbole yes but still. Can anyone relate?
- RajT88 4y ago
  > "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" Hello!
- intelVISA 4y ago
  > "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" as an example. for once I'm glad to be the opposite to the usual trope.. but I feel you it is tiring to be interrogated over the location of my non-existent funko-pop cache just because I write code. Even saying "I swear I don't write Js" doesn't protect you these days.
nicoburns 4y ago
> In tech, people ascribe you an identity as much as you claim one yourself. Indeed that is true of most kinds of identity. People will ascribe you racial and gender identities which may or may not match the ones you wish to claim for example.

strken 4y ago

I think with JS frameworks, it's more a case of moving house using the hatchback parked in your driveway, instead of going out and buying a brand new truck. Or hammering tent pegs with the side of a rock instead of bringing a hammer with you. There's a cost to buying and learning new tools.

kethinov 4y ago
That would be an easier argument to accept if people were more honest about it. Or honest with themselves about it and more self-aware that that's really what it's about: not wanting to learn new things or the perception (real or otherwise) of lacking the time to. But too often instead it seems like people rationalize the desire to avoid learning new things by making pseudo arguments that the thing they already like is the best option when in reality it's mostly just a post hoc justification of a preconceived notion.

yobbo 4y ago

> a belief system that the tribe's preferred framework is always the right tool for the job. It's not really about "the right tool for the job". It's about protecting and promoting the tribe's investment.

simne 4y ago

JavaScript is just wrong example. It very early has become uber-tool, when appear first specification of ECMA-script (essentially same gramma, but was universal language not tied to eny platform or specifics). But if talk about business, I remember Ford's phrase: "develop product, which will fit expectations of 80% of your clients; 10% will just change mind; 10% will pay additional money for customization".

naet 4y ago

I think there's an industry trend or career pressure towards being a member of a JS "tribe". Companies don't believe in people learning new technologies, instead they only want people with lots of experience in their specific framework and nothing more. I've used React, Vue, Elm, Vanilla JS, and some legacy JQuery in production over my last three years of work (along with Next, Nuxt, Gatsby, Hugo, and many others). I thought that would make me a well rounded candidate with an understanding of different trade offs and an ability to pick up new things. Now that I'm looking for a new job though it seems like most places are looking to hire someone 100% React dev, and my history of framework diversity has become more of a liability than an asset somehow.