4 ms·

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread about exactly what Portugal did, and the ramifications for the U.S. in terms of time-frame and difficulty.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread about exactly what Portugal did, and the ramifications for the U.S. in terms of time-frame and difficulty. What Portugal did was decriminalize the possession of small amounts of drugs. They did not legalize them. There is a huge difference. Decriminalization essentially means that possession of small amounts of drugs is no longer an offense that warrants an arrest and jail time. In a decriminalized system an officer can still stop someone for drugs, but they can only write them a ticket- similar to speeding, jaywalking or illegal parking. This makes a huge difference for a number of reasons. First, it's easier to implement politically because the substances are still illegal. Second, it's less costly because people caught with small amounts are not caught up in the justice system for years, and only pay a small fine. Third, it decreases the adversarial nature of the "war on drugs" because being caught with drugs is no longer a life-changing event. Marijuana possession is already decriminalized in many states in the U.S. (California, Colorado, New York and Oregon off the top of my head). It is clearly not an impossibility to implement politically, and in fact the trend in the U.S. is already on its way. An important hurdle is that we do not have any states that have yet decriminalized "harder" drugs like heroin and cocaine, but it is simply a matter of time. Pressure on lawmakers in the form of education, money and votes will in fact work. It just takes time.

chimeracoder 15y ago
> California, Colorado, New York and Oregon off the top of my head All decriminalization is not alike. In New York, for example, decriminalization is in in name only, because police can easily exploit a loophole that allows them to charge people with possession of more than an ounce (criminal) even if they only have a few grams (not criminal). Because of this, New York City arrests more people (per-capita and in total) than any other city in the entire world. Compare to the Netherlands, which also has 'only' decriminalized marijuana.
- Enthusiastic 15y ago
  In New York, the police will do a stop and frisk, tell people to empty their pockets, and then charge people with displaying the drug in public when they obey the order to empty their pockets. Is this the loophole you mean? Or is your loophole a different one?
  - chimeracoder 15y ago
    More or less. There are other variations on how to exploit the same clause in the law, but basically, marijuana that is 'open to public view or burning' can be prosecuted as if it is 28+ grams, regardless of the actual amount. The history behind how New York's marijuana decriminalization and this loophole came to pass, especially in contrast to the Rockefeller drug laws, is actually a rather fascinating example of the sheer racial/socioeconomic hypocrisy within US drug laws.
    - seanp2k2 15y ago
      From Ann Arbor, Michigan here, where the STATE law says that possession is illegal, but locally it's a misdemeanour for non-medical and $25-100 fine. REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_laws_in_Ann_Arbor,_Michigan#Michigan_Medical_Marijuana_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_laws_in_Ann_Arbor,_Mi... If it's for medical use and you're all registered as a patient, it's now technically legal under local and state laws, but illegal under federal law. TL;DR the laws are a mess and if the FBI catches you, you're still pretty screwed. We need to work on reforming the laws at a federal level, since that overrides all lower laws. It'd be at least cool to have the federal law just refuse to say one way or the other on marijuana, so that states could decide what is right for them.
      - sneak 15y ago
        Does that indeed override the state laws? Many states have laws against things that are not federally prohibited, and legal in other states that do not prohibit those things. I think you may be incorrect.
        bostonvaulter2 15y ago
        States can be more restrictive but they cannot be less restrictive. Thus if the nation declares that marijuana is illegal a state cannot declare that it is legal (see the medical marijuana raids in California). And if the nation declares that alcohol is legal then a state can make it illegal within that state.
felipe 15y ago
Actually what Portugal did was much more profound than just changing the law: They reformed their system to treat drugs as a health issue rather than a criminal issue. That also changed the perception of the society towards the issue. In the US even though in some states marijuana is decriminalized, drugs are still treated as a criminal issue.
tsotha 15y ago
>Marijuana possession is already decriminalized in many states in the U.S... But it's still illegal at the federal level, and federal penalties are quite severe. Prosecutors can force you to plead to other charges with the threat of turning you over to the feds on marijuana possession.

chimeracoder 15y ago

> California, Colorado, New York and Oregon off the top of my head All decriminalization is not alike. In New York, for example, decriminalization is in in name only, because police can easily exploit a loophole that allows them to charge people with possession of more than an ounce (criminal) even if they only have a few grams (not criminal). Because of this, New York City arrests more people (per-capita and in total) than any other city in the entire world. Compare to the Netherlands, which also has 'only' decriminalized marijuana.

Enthusiastic 15y ago
In New York, the police will do a stop and frisk, tell people to empty their pockets, and then charge people with displaying the drug in public when they obey the order to empty their pockets. Is this the loophole you mean? Or is your loophole a different one?
- chimeracoder 15y ago
  More or less. There are other variations on how to exploit the same clause in the law, but basically, marijuana that is 'open to public view or burning' can be prosecuted as if it is 28+ grams, regardless of the actual amount. The history behind how New York's marijuana decriminalization and this loophole came to pass, especially in contrast to the Rockefeller drug laws, is actually a rather fascinating example of the sheer racial/socioeconomic hypocrisy within US drug laws.
  - seanp2k2 15y ago
    From Ann Arbor, Michigan here, where the STATE law says that possession is illegal, but locally it's a misdemeanour for non-medical and $25-100 fine. REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_laws_in_Ann_Arbor,_Michigan#Michigan_Medical_Marijuana_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_laws_in_Ann_Arbor,_Mi... If it's for medical use and you're all registered as a patient, it's now technically legal under local and state laws, but illegal under federal law. TL;DR the laws are a mess and if the FBI catches you, you're still pretty screwed. We need to work on reforming the laws at a federal level, since that overrides all lower laws. It'd be at least cool to have the federal law just refuse to say one way or the other on marijuana, so that states could decide what is right for them.
    - sneak 15y ago
      Does that indeed override the state laws? Many states have laws against things that are not federally prohibited, and legal in other states that do not prohibit those things. I think you may be incorrect.
      - bostonvaulter2 15y ago
        States can be more restrictive but they cannot be less restrictive. Thus if the nation declares that marijuana is illegal a state cannot declare that it is legal (see the medical marijuana raids in California). And if the nation declares that alcohol is legal then a state can make it illegal within that state.

felipe 15y ago

Actually what Portugal did was much more profound than just changing the law: They reformed their system to treat drugs as a health issue rather than a criminal issue. That also changed the perception of the society towards the issue. In the US even though in some states marijuana is decriminalized, drugs are still treated as a criminal issue.

tsotha 15y ago

>Marijuana possession is already decriminalized in many states in the U.S... But it's still illegal at the federal level, and federal penalties are quite severe. Prosecutors can force you to plead to other charges with the threat of turning you over to the feds on marijuana possession.