4 ms·

There is SO MUCH empty land out in deserts. We aren't going to run out of space.

by cortesoft 4y ago

justinator 4y ago
Deserts ≠ wastelands. They're home to their own ecosystems.
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  Yes, they are also very fragile and take a long time to recover. I think solar panels done right could actually help a desert though. Providing shade can allow some plants to thrive but most solar developers aren’t thinking about the ecology of a region.
  - lazide 4y ago
    If you’re providing massive amounts of new shade in an ecosystem that normally doesn’t get it, that is going to change things.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Large installations usually come with mandatory ecological impact assessment requirements.
    - imoverclocked 4y ago
      How many of these mandatory impact assessments are identifying ways of improving the ecosystem with their installation? Obviously I don’t mean by by displacing carbon.
- chrisbaker98 4y ago
  From a purely selfish human point of view, how important are desert ecosystems to the overall health of the planet and the planet's ability to support human life? I feel like sacrificing the deserts to save the rainforests is a trade worth making - but is such a trade even possible, or is it not that simple?
  - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    Deserts are a critical part of our ecosystem just like every other part of the planet. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015GL063040 https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/201...
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      This article actually suggests that desertification is a critical part of the Rainforest ecosystem. There are important deserts and there are important grasslands and important forests. It seems a valid point that not all ecosystems are of equal importance.
  - justinator 4y ago
    >From a purely selfish human point of view Well that's a point of view that's never steered us wrong.
    - chrisbaker98 4y ago
      Well we've been the dominant species on our planet for tens of thousands of years, so I'd say it's gone pretty well so far.
      - justinator 4y ago
        Pretty well so far for whom? We've initiated a mass global extinction. There wasn't ever a competition to take over the world as a species - no award, no prize - no one and nothing cares. The only way we've done it is by eliminating everything in our path. We've been excellent at justifying eliminating entire ecosystems - when will we stop? Probably right before we've justified eliminating entire countries of people with the weapons of death we've developed by extracting every last resource for the ground by digging it up.
masklinn 4y ago
As I was told last time I noted there’s lot of arid places you could put panel in, aside from ecological concerns arid places tend to be dusty and abrasive. Wind kicks up dust, dust clings to panel, no rain for months on end, panels get covered up and scratched. Turns out there’s issues to using these spaces, and you need additional hardware (and thus have additional failure modes) to mitigate them.
neltnerb 4y ago
It would be interesting paired with some kind of heat sink. Solar cells need a heat sink to keep them cool or else the efficiency sucks. Deserts tend to be cold at night. Capture heat during the day as a byproduct of using the solar panels, and use it at night for heating homes? Maybe I'm being too optimistic, usually things that improve efficiency don't actually work for some reason.
shapefrog 4y ago
There is SO MUCH empty land on the roof of our buildings - and electricity using devices within said buildings.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Rooftops are not that much land area. A few percent of a city landscape? Further it's dangerous. Installation, maintenance become a headache and a risk. Then, so many rooftops are not in optimal 'viewing locations'. Shaded by trees; shaded by neighboring buildings especially in a city. It seems natural to a non-engineer to 'make electricity where you need it'. But rooftops don't scale with need, not at all. An apartment building on a lot with 3 stories or 30, same rooftop area. Terrible economics. And electricity is fungible! Make it over there; use it over here. Almost free. Certainly cheaper than struggling to mount something delicate in the hardest place you can find.
escalt 4y ago
That might be true in some places, but in Europe for example there really isn't that much room left. And moving large quantities of electricity from a desert to a place where people actually use it is also a challenge

There is SO MUCH empty land out in deserts. We aren't going to run out of space.

justinator 4y ago

Deserts ≠ wastelands. They're home to their own ecosystems.

imoverclocked 4y ago
Yes, they are also very fragile and take a long time to recover. I think solar panels done right could actually help a desert though. Providing shade can allow some plants to thrive but most solar developers aren’t thinking about the ecology of a region.
- lazide 4y ago
  If you’re providing massive amounts of new shade in an ecosystem that normally doesn’t get it, that is going to change things.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Large installations usually come with mandatory ecological impact assessment requirements.
  - imoverclocked 4y ago
    How many of these mandatory impact assessments are identifying ways of improving the ecosystem with their installation? Obviously I don’t mean by by displacing carbon.
chrisbaker98 4y ago
From a purely selfish human point of view, how important are desert ecosystems to the overall health of the planet and the planet's ability to support human life? I feel like sacrificing the deserts to save the rainforests is a trade worth making - but is such a trade even possible, or is it not that simple?
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  Deserts are a critical part of our ecosystem just like every other part of the planet. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015GL063040 https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/201...
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    This article actually suggests that desertification is a critical part of the Rainforest ecosystem. There are important deserts and there are important grasslands and important forests. It seems a valid point that not all ecosystems are of equal importance.
- justinator 4y ago
  >From a purely selfish human point of view Well that's a point of view that's never steered us wrong.
  - chrisbaker98 4y ago
    Well we've been the dominant species on our planet for tens of thousands of years, so I'd say it's gone pretty well so far.
    - justinator 4y ago
      Pretty well so far for whom? We've initiated a mass global extinction. There wasn't ever a competition to take over the world as a species - no award, no prize - no one and nothing cares. The only way we've done it is by eliminating everything in our path. We've been excellent at justifying eliminating entire ecosystems - when will we stop? Probably right before we've justified eliminating entire countries of people with the weapons of death we've developed by extracting every last resource for the ground by digging it up.

masklinn 4y ago

As I was told last time I noted there’s lot of arid places you could put panel in, aside from ecological concerns arid places tend to be dusty and abrasive. Wind kicks up dust, dust clings to panel, no rain for months on end, panels get covered up and scratched. Turns out there’s issues to using these spaces, and you need additional hardware (and thus have additional failure modes) to mitigate them.

neltnerb 4y ago

It would be interesting paired with some kind of heat sink. Solar cells need a heat sink to keep them cool or else the efficiency sucks. Deserts tend to be cold at night. Capture heat during the day as a byproduct of using the solar panels, and use it at night for heating homes? Maybe I'm being too optimistic, usually things that improve efficiency don't actually work for some reason.

shapefrog 4y ago

There is SO MUCH empty land on the roof of our buildings - and electricity using devices within said buildings.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Rooftops are not that much land area. A few percent of a city landscape? Further it's dangerous. Installation, maintenance become a headache and a risk. Then, so many rooftops are not in optimal 'viewing locations'. Shaded by trees; shaded by neighboring buildings especially in a city. It seems natural to a non-engineer to 'make electricity where you need it'. But rooftops don't scale with need, not at all. An apartment building on a lot with 3 stories or 30, same rooftop area. Terrible economics. And electricity is fungible! Make it over there; use it over here. Almost free. Certainly cheaper than struggling to mount something delicate in the hardest place you can find.

escalt 4y ago

That might be true in some places, but in Europe for example there really isn't that much room left. And moving large quantities of electricity from a desert to a place where people actually use it is also a challenge