6 ms·

As in, the most damning, or the least relevant?

jjulius 4y ago
Most damning. The driver being able to easily lean out the window to talk to people as it passes tolls, inspection points, hell, weigh stations, is important. That all of these engineers and designers massively overlooked such a vital component of truck driving out of Tesla's own hubris is hilariously embarrassing, IMO.
- simondotau 4y ago
  We can only assume they overlooked it. The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. And like most things, it's going to be a series of trade-offs. Perhaps they decided that in a big picture analysis, the disadvantages are fewer than the advantages.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    If you want industry buy-in, you generally need the industry to be on-board with what you are doing. Building some product in a dark warehouse, then thrusting it onto the industry is a recipe for rejection and failure.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. Thank you for quickly dismissing the opinion of someone who has experience driving semi-trucks and currently works adjacent to that industry, interacting with truck drivers on a daily basis. I see a massive, massive flaw in this design based on my own experience but, "Nope, shut up, you haven't driven the new one, your opinion is invalid". Got it.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      I didn't say shut up, and I didn't say your opinion is invalid. Your opinion is valid. Please stop putting words in my mouth. All I'm saying is I don't feel there's a need to come to any conclusions about the design until we've had feedback from people who have actually used the product in the real world. I can't believe anyone would consider this an unreasonable stance.
      - turmeric_root 4y ago
        > The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. --- > I didn't say shut up, and I didn't say your opinion is invalid. Your opinion is valid.
        simondotau 4y ago
        Yes, that's what I said. Do I seriously need to explain words?
        NegativeK 4y ago
        I think you need to reexamine the phrasing you're using, because it's coming off as extremely dismissive of people with significant knowledge of the industry.
        meragrin_ 4y ago
        > it's coming off as extremely dismissive of people with significant knowledge of the industry. Nah, it's coming off as dismissive of people who haven't used a product.
        turmeric_root 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics
- newsclues 4y ago
  All of these factors can have the infrastructure updated to the 21st century. We don't need coins for tolls, or paperwork.
  - mediaman 4y ago
    That's hilarious. Okay, go tell every warehouse and factory with a loading dock out there that their systems are out of date and they need to use RFID for everything. And if they don't -- well, we won't send this truck to your facility! A little bit of humility when it comes to appreciating how sectors of the economy you have zero experience with would go a long way.
    - labcomputer 4y ago
      Maybe, but trucking is a low-margin industry. If the "fuel" savings are even half as big as Tesla claims, there is going to be a strong incentive to switch to this truck. Suddenly, the warehouses that refuse to switch are paying more for shipping via ICE truck... that is their choice of course, but I don't want to hear any whining about how unfair it is.
      - rsynnott 4y ago
        That only really works if Tesla has a monopoly on electric trucks, though. They do not.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      It's not that I don't understand the challenge of changing not just infrastructure but the way people do things, but it can be done. Either climate change is a real problem and society is going to have to fundamentally shift and do lots of little things like change how warehouses and factory loading docks work for increased efficiency. Don't you think these challenges will be solved before we have robo trucks on the roads, which will need the same changes? I wasn't a trucker, but I did do LTL shipping in addition to FedEx, so I've signed enough manifests to know that having a good excuse to update the industry wouldn't be resisted as much as you think, because the costs would pay for themselves eventually.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  > We can only assume they overlooked it. I don’t think they overlooked it. I think they designed the cab to be as aerodynamic as possible, so as to squeeze out every bit of range they could … and this dictated the driver position.
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    So ignored key usability requirements for an arbitrary product management goal. :thumbs-up:
    - macspoofing 4y ago
      I think it’s more that this truck is at the edge of viability as a long haul commercial vehicle. They don’t do things like this, and this truck doesn’t exist.
      - jonathankoren 4y ago
        Then it shouldn’t exist. If you want an electric semi that doesn’t suck, get a Freightliner eCascadia.
        macspoofing 4y ago
        OK - I'm personally not really torn up about it. Either this truck is viable in the market, or it isn't. If it isn't, then it won't do well.
- nine_k 4y ago
  A microphone and a speaker allows customers to talk to bank clerks sitting far behind thick bulletproof glass. They could implement that on a truck. Handing papers over is harder, but I wonder if making a small window that can be opened would be really hard. The driver would need to stand up, though.
  - microtherion 4y ago
    Just ship an Optimus along with the truck so it can walk out with the papers and hand them over. Problem solved, more profits!
  - manmal 4y ago
    The Semi should ship with a trash grabber to hand over papers with. It could even have the microphone built in, just point it at the checkpoint clerk.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  inspection points, hell, weigh stations, is important. FWIW, a lot of US weigh stations are automated now. I know very little about it, but from what I've observed, it seems that the truck drives through, and the information is transmitted from the truck to the station, and computers handle fuel tax and that sort of thing. I don't know if this is the future, or how widespread it is, but it's at least a step in the right direction.
- mortehu 4y ago
  How much do you think the total absence of engine noise compensates for the additional distance? Also there could be less attenuation inside the cab if there aren't many soft surfaces to absorb the sound.
Alupis 4y ago
The most damning in that they obviously didn't consult any real truck drivers or truck manufacturing companies to figure out why things are the way they are, before setting out to try improving them. We see this a lot with smart inexperienced developers taking on entire industries with hopes of "disruption" - but lack even the most basic understanding of that industry and it's problems. The hubris necessary to assume everyone in the industry are dumb and just haven't thought about these novel improvements is very high...
- _ea1k 4y ago
  The project was originally lead by the former lead of the Cascadia program.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    Perhaps you are talking about Feightliner's eCascadia truck? If so, I think we're only making this case stronger. The eCascadia is a traditional semi, but electric and technology improvements here and there. It's not a "throw everything out and start from scratch" thing. Perhaps there's a reason he is the former lead... The Tesla Semi is a fantasy semi that no one asked for and I suspect no one will buy. There's plenty of electric semi's already available...
    - _ea1k 4y ago
      I'm not sure that I understand your point here. He was there for the Cascadia program almost 20 years ago. It had plenty of problems on its own, but I don't think there's doubt that he worked with a traditional trucking company. They had plenty of relevant experience on hand.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        You should probably be more clear in what specifically you are talking about. Names and links would be helpful... Regardless, just because he was part of some team at some truck manufacturer doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. The Tesla Semi isn't a "Trucker's Truck" by any stretch of the imagination. It was designed to look cool and get good PR...

Most damning. The driver being able to easily lean out the window to talk to people as it passes tolls, inspection points, hell, weigh stations, is important. That all of these engineers and designers massively overlooked such a vital component of truck driving out of Tesla's own hubris is hilariously embarrassing, IMO.

simondotau 4y ago
We can only assume they overlooked it. The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. And like most things, it's going to be a series of trade-offs. Perhaps they decided that in a big picture analysis, the disadvantages are fewer than the advantages.
- Alupis 4y ago
  If you want industry buy-in, you generally need the industry to be on-board with what you are doing. Building some product in a dark warehouse, then thrusting it onto the industry is a recipe for rejection and failure.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. Thank you for quickly dismissing the opinion of someone who has experience driving semi-trucks and currently works adjacent to that industry, interacting with truck drivers on a daily basis. I see a massive, massive flaw in this design based on my own experience but, "Nope, shut up, you haven't driven the new one, your opinion is invalid". Got it.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    I didn't say shut up, and I didn't say your opinion is invalid. Your opinion is valid. Please stop putting words in my mouth. All I'm saying is I don't feel there's a need to come to any conclusions about the design until we've had feedback from people who have actually used the product in the real world. I can't believe anyone would consider this an unreasonable stance.
    - turmeric_root 4y ago
      > The opinion of someone who has actually driven a Tesla Semi through a weigh station would be infinitely more relevant than anything you, I or the OP have to say. --- > I didn't say shut up, and I didn't say your opinion is invalid. Your opinion is valid.
      - simondotau 4y ago
        Yes, that's what I said. Do I seriously need to explain words?
        NegativeK 4y ago
        I think you need to reexamine the phrasing you're using, because it's coming off as extremely dismissive of people with significant knowledge of the industry.
        meragrin_ 4y ago
        > it's coming off as extremely dismissive of people with significant knowledge of the industry. Nah, it's coming off as dismissive of people who haven't used a product.
        turmeric_root 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics
newsclues 4y ago
All of these factors can have the infrastructure updated to the 21st century. We don't need coins for tolls, or paperwork.
- mediaman 4y ago
  That's hilarious. Okay, go tell every warehouse and factory with a loading dock out there that their systems are out of date and they need to use RFID for everything. And if they don't -- well, we won't send this truck to your facility! A little bit of humility when it comes to appreciating how sectors of the economy you have zero experience with would go a long way.
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Maybe, but trucking is a low-margin industry. If the "fuel" savings are even half as big as Tesla claims, there is going to be a strong incentive to switch to this truck. Suddenly, the warehouses that refuse to switch are paying more for shipping via ICE truck... that is their choice of course, but I don't want to hear any whining about how unfair it is.
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      That only really works if Tesla has a monopoly on electric trucks, though. They do not.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    It's not that I don't understand the challenge of changing not just infrastructure but the way people do things, but it can be done. Either climate change is a real problem and society is going to have to fundamentally shift and do lots of little things like change how warehouses and factory loading docks work for increased efficiency. Don't you think these challenges will be solved before we have robo trucks on the roads, which will need the same changes? I wasn't a trucker, but I did do LTL shipping in addition to FedEx, so I've signed enough manifests to know that having a good excuse to update the industry wouldn't be resisted as much as you think, because the costs would pay for themselves eventually.
macspoofing 4y ago
> We can only assume they overlooked it. I don’t think they overlooked it. I think they designed the cab to be as aerodynamic as possible, so as to squeeze out every bit of range they could … and this dictated the driver position.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  So ignored key usability requirements for an arbitrary product management goal. :thumbs-up:
  - macspoofing 4y ago
    I think it’s more that this truck is at the edge of viability as a long haul commercial vehicle. They don’t do things like this, and this truck doesn’t exist.
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      Then it shouldn’t exist. If you want an electric semi that doesn’t suck, get a Freightliner eCascadia.
      - macspoofing 4y ago
        OK - I'm personally not really torn up about it. Either this truck is viable in the market, or it isn't. If it isn't, then it won't do well.
nine_k 4y ago
A microphone and a speaker allows customers to talk to bank clerks sitting far behind thick bulletproof glass. They could implement that on a truck. Handing papers over is harder, but I wonder if making a small window that can be opened would be really hard. The driver would need to stand up, though.
- microtherion 4y ago
  Just ship an Optimus along with the truck so it can walk out with the papers and hand them over. Problem solved, more profits!
- manmal 4y ago
  The Semi should ship with a trash grabber to hand over papers with. It could even have the microphone built in, just point it at the checkpoint clerk.
reaperducer 4y ago
inspection points, hell, weigh stations, is important. FWIW, a lot of US weigh stations are automated now. I know very little about it, but from what I've observed, it seems that the truck drives through, and the information is transmitted from the truck to the station, and computers handle fuel tax and that sort of thing. I don't know if this is the future, or how widespread it is, but it's at least a step in the right direction.
mortehu 4y ago
How much do you think the total absence of engine noise compensates for the additional distance? Also there could be less attenuation inside the cab if there aren't many soft surfaces to absorb the sound.

Alupis 4y ago

The most damning in that they obviously didn't consult any real truck drivers or truck manufacturing companies to figure out why things are the way they are, before setting out to try improving them. We see this a lot with smart inexperienced developers taking on entire industries with hopes of "disruption" - but lack even the most basic understanding of that industry and it's problems. The hubris necessary to assume everyone in the industry are dumb and just haven't thought about these novel improvements is very high...

_ea1k 4y ago
The project was originally lead by the former lead of the Cascadia program.
- Alupis 4y ago
  Perhaps you are talking about Feightliner's eCascadia truck? If so, I think we're only making this case stronger. The eCascadia is a traditional semi, but electric and technology improvements here and there. It's not a "throw everything out and start from scratch" thing. Perhaps there's a reason he is the former lead... The Tesla Semi is a fantasy semi that no one asked for and I suspect no one will buy. There's plenty of electric semi's already available...
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    I'm not sure that I understand your point here. He was there for the Cascadia program almost 20 years ago. It had plenty of problems on its own, but I don't think there's doubt that he worked with a traditional trucking company. They had plenty of relevant experience on hand.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      You should probably be more clear in what specifically you are talking about. Names and links would be helpful... Regardless, just because he was part of some team at some truck manufacturer doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. The Tesla Semi isn't a "Trucker's Truck" by any stretch of the imagination. It was designed to look cool and get good PR...