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Yep. Just search “borrow checker” on their subreddit. Any post pointing out an instance where it makes things overly verbose and complex is immediately met with

Yep. Just search “borrow checker” on their subreddit. Any post pointing out an instance where it makes things overly verbose and complex is immediately met with downvotes and “why do you need to do that”s.

bombela 4y ago
They forget themselves how it was for them at first (the curse of knowledge). New comers might even get onto the train and pretend they know better for appearance's sake. Murking the water. Remember if you know better than the borrow checker you can use raw pointers. There is very little friction. But are you sure you can do better without the safety of the borrow checker having your back?
- alphanullmeric 4y ago
  Raw pointers in rust are a pain to work with. This rust code is significantly less verbose in C++: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2021&gist=2090306ea0822fecf4fc154df8adb5a9 https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&editio... Rust purposely handicaps ergonomics, even when it wouldn't come at the expense of safety. This is just one example. Rust also doesn't have function overloading, default arguments, named parameters, anonymous structs, unwrap sugar (like !! in kotlin), etc. Rust's aversion to user choice precisely what is hampering its adoption. Docker and kubernetes are written in go. Unreal engine, high frequency trading systems and most of google is written in C++. What significant thing has been written in rust? it's forever going to be a hobbyist language competing on stackoverflow surveys instead of actual large-scale applications. Nobody with any actual money on the line wants to take the hit in productivity to switch to rust, at most it's used for a small part of a larger project written in another language. By the end of the decade there's going to be more things written in carbon than in rust, and that sucks because it was completely preventable.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    One has to start somewhere, https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-languages-in-android-13.html https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-language... https://twitter.com/dwizzzlemsft/status/1578532292662005760?lang=en https://twitter.com/dwizzzlemsft/status/1578532292662005760?... https://devclass.com/2022/06/21/rust-applications-previewed-on-azure-sphere-a-lifeline-for-embedded-systems-says-microsoft/ https://devclass.com/2022/06/21/rust-applications-previewed-... https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ https://krustlet.dev/ https://krustlet.dev/ https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/rust-ecosystem https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/rust-ecosystem https://research.activision.com/publications/2021/09/the-rust-programming-language-for-game-tooling https://research.activision.com/publications/2021/09/the-rus... Carbon is still an AST interpreter with half baked language design, and it remains to be seen how many of the features are to be designed. From Carbon, Val, Cpp2, Circle, the last one is the only one that has a chance to actually provide a proper migration path from classical C++. If I would have to put money in any of those wannabe C++ replacements, Circle would be it.
thethirdone 4y ago
I tested that out and mostly only found positive, constructive comments. I only found 2 cases of someone complaining about verbosity though. Searching "borrow checker verbose" doesn't give many results with complaints. Can you link some examples?
- alphanullmeric 4y ago
  They don't have to be complaining about verbosity, it will suffice to just have an example where the borrow checker gets in the way to be met with downvotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/z3gwag/circumvent_borrow_checker_rules_for_a_scripting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/z3gwag/circumvent_bor... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/y20wqd/fighting_the_borrow_checker_with_an_borrowed_error/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/y20wqd/fighting_the_b... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vyr8im/help_with_making_the_borrow_checker_happy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vyr8im/help_with_maki... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ttzb5w/how_to_deal_with_borrow_checker_for_linked_lists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ttzb5w/how_to_deal_wi... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhcuhe/help_need_help_complying_algorithm_to_borrow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhcuhe/help_need_help... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ufviu4/question_lifetime_borrow_checker_self_referencial/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ufviu4/question_lifet... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/red1f9/borrow_checker_and_lifetime_issue_i_dont/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/red1f9/borrow_checker... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ozruff/help_with_borrow_checker/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ozruff/help_with_borr... You can also try searching "linked list" or "graph". And here are some bigger posts that are genuinely critical, met with the typical rustacean response: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/rylrma/im_losing_hope_to_ever_learn_this_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/rylrma/im_losing_hope... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xj2a23/my_thoughts_on_rust_and_c/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xj2a23/my_thoughts_on... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xryi2n/opinion_rust_has_the_largest_learning_curve_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xryi2n/opinion_rust_h... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/s75wd9/a_c_perspective_why_should_i_want_rust_to_succeed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/s75wd9/a_c_perspectiv...

bombela 4y ago

They forget themselves how it was for them at first (the curse of knowledge). New comers might even get onto the train and pretend they know better for appearance's sake. Murking the water. Remember if you know better than the borrow checker you can use raw pointers. There is very little friction. But are you sure you can do better without the safety of the borrow checker having your back?

alphanullmeric 4y ago
Raw pointers in rust are a pain to work with. This rust code is significantly less verbose in C++: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2021&gist=2090306ea0822fecf4fc154df8adb5a9 https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&editio... Rust purposely handicaps ergonomics, even when it wouldn't come at the expense of safety. This is just one example. Rust also doesn't have function overloading, default arguments, named parameters, anonymous structs, unwrap sugar (like !! in kotlin), etc. Rust's aversion to user choice precisely what is hampering its adoption. Docker and kubernetes are written in go. Unreal engine, high frequency trading systems and most of google is written in C++. What significant thing has been written in rust? it's forever going to be a hobbyist language competing on stackoverflow surveys instead of actual large-scale applications. Nobody with any actual money on the line wants to take the hit in productivity to switch to rust, at most it's used for a small part of a larger project written in another language. By the end of the decade there's going to be more things written in carbon than in rust, and that sucks because it was completely preventable.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  One has to start somewhere, https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-languages-in-android-13.html https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-language... https://twitter.com/dwizzzlemsft/status/1578532292662005760?lang=en https://twitter.com/dwizzzlemsft/status/1578532292662005760?... https://devclass.com/2022/06/21/rust-applications-previewed-on-azure-sphere-a-lifeline-for-embedded-systems-says-microsoft/ https://devclass.com/2022/06/21/rust-applications-previewed-... https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ https://krustlet.dev/ https://krustlet.dev/ https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/rust-ecosystem https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/rust-ecosystem https://research.activision.com/publications/2021/09/the-rust-programming-language-for-game-tooling https://research.activision.com/publications/2021/09/the-rus... Carbon is still an AST interpreter with half baked language design, and it remains to be seen how many of the features are to be designed. From Carbon, Val, Cpp2, Circle, the last one is the only one that has a chance to actually provide a proper migration path from classical C++. If I would have to put money in any of those wannabe C++ replacements, Circle would be it.

thethirdone 4y ago

I tested that out and mostly only found positive, constructive comments. I only found 2 cases of someone complaining about verbosity though. Searching "borrow checker verbose" doesn't give many results with complaints. Can you link some examples?

alphanullmeric 4y ago
They don't have to be complaining about verbosity, it will suffice to just have an example where the borrow checker gets in the way to be met with downvotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/z3gwag/circumvent_borrow_checker_rules_for_a_scripting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/z3gwag/circumvent_bor... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/y20wqd/fighting_the_borrow_checker_with_an_borrowed_error/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/y20wqd/fighting_the_b... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vyr8im/help_with_making_the_borrow_checker_happy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vyr8im/help_with_maki... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ttzb5w/how_to_deal_with_borrow_checker_for_linked_lists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ttzb5w/how_to_deal_wi... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhcuhe/help_need_help_complying_algorithm_to_borrow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhcuhe/help_need_help... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ufviu4/question_lifetime_borrow_checker_self_referencial/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ufviu4/question_lifet... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/red1f9/borrow_checker_and_lifetime_issue_i_dont/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/red1f9/borrow_checker... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ozruff/help_with_borrow_checker/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/ozruff/help_with_borr... You can also try searching "linked list" or "graph". And here are some bigger posts that are genuinely critical, met with the typical rustacean response: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/rylrma/im_losing_hope_to_ever_learn_this_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/rylrma/im_losing_hope... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xj2a23/my_thoughts_on_rust_and_c/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xj2a23/my_thoughts_on... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xryi2n/opinion_rust_has_the_largest_learning_curve_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/xryi2n/opinion_rust_h... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/s75wd9/a_c_perspective_why_should_i_want_rust_to_succeed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/s75wd9/a_c_perspectiv...