4 ms·

xfce still one of the best wm, but its definatly not the oldest.

lproven 4y ago
It's not a WM. It _contains_ a WM but it is a lot more than that. A WM doesn't have a file manager or a suite of integrated accessories. Most do not have an app-switcher, and many do not even have an app browsing and launching mechanism.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Nowadays, that isn't how it started.
  - lproven 4y ago
    It isn't how it started on Unix boxes, no. It is if you go all the way back to Smalltalk, but that is far outside the scope of this discussion. The early Unix GUIs didn't really have desktops because the concept hadn't really been invented yet. It was largely built from the whole cloth by Apple in the Lisa and then refined and simplified into greater accessibility and usefulness by the Mac. Windows didn't really have a "desktop" until Win95, but the Win3 UI was a complete one, just not very integrated. GEM and AmigaOS were clearly desktops by 1985 or so, but Linux & the free BSDs didn't exist yet back then. TWM wasn't a desktop, but CDE was. IXI x/Desktop was perhaps the first I read about on PC UNIX. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.desktop It's roughly contemporaneous with the IRIX Magic desktop on SGI kit. SunView might count. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunView https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunView That was, what, 1985 or so?
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      We are talking about XFCE and GNU/Linux window managers/desktops here, not about history of desktop environments across the computing industry.
      - lproven 4y ago
        We're not really. I wrote, in the story that this comment thread results from, that Xfce is the oldest Linux desktop. I stand by that, but I welcome correction if someone has evidence: citations. Compare: "The VW Beetle is the best selling car of all time." "No, the Honda Cub sold twice as many!" "Maybe so, but irrelevant. The VW Beetle is a car. The Honda Cub is a motorcycle." "But the Cub sold 100 million! The Beetle only sold 50M!" This may be true, but it is comparing different things. Yes, the Cub outsold the Beetle. But I am talking about cars. I'm not talking about motorcycles. I am sure you are right: the Cub sold more, but it's not a car, so it is irrelevant. "You are being unfair! The VW came first!" I am sure it did. But the VW Beetle is a car. I said, best selling car. Not motorcycle. Xfce is not a window manager. These is an Xfce WM. It is part of the product. But it is not just a WM. It is a desktop. Desktops came later than WMs. WMs are an older tech. But a desktop is not a WM, and a WM is not a desktop. There absolutely are older desktops, but they are not Linux desktops. They originated on other OSes and were subsequently ported to Linux. There absolutely were older desktops that were proprietary, the companies behind them are defunct, and they are gone now. That means they are not older, because they are dead. I am older than Christopgher Marlowe. He was born long long before me, but he died at 29. I am 55. Yes I was born later but I'm alive, and he is dead. There absolutely are older WMs, but WMs are not desktops. I do not really understand why you and @jeroen79 want to argue about this. I am not talking about all desktops on all OSes. I am not talking about WMs. If I were, these arguments would be valid. Is there a currently-maintained Linux-native desktop environment older than Xfce? Not a bare WM. Not something long dead. Not something from another OS. If yes, I am happy to admit I was wrong. If not, I stand by it.

It's not a WM. It _contains_ a WM but it is a lot more than that. A WM doesn't have a file manager or a suite of integrated accessories. Most do not have an app-switcher, and many do not even have an app browsing and launching mechanism.

pjmlp 4y ago
Nowadays, that isn't how it started.
- lproven 4y ago
  It isn't how it started on Unix boxes, no. It is if you go all the way back to Smalltalk, but that is far outside the scope of this discussion. The early Unix GUIs didn't really have desktops because the concept hadn't really been invented yet. It was largely built from the whole cloth by Apple in the Lisa and then refined and simplified into greater accessibility and usefulness by the Mac. Windows didn't really have a "desktop" until Win95, but the Win3 UI was a complete one, just not very integrated. GEM and AmigaOS were clearly desktops by 1985 or so, but Linux & the free BSDs didn't exist yet back then. TWM wasn't a desktop, but CDE was. IXI x/Desktop was perhaps the first I read about on PC UNIX. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.desktop It's roughly contemporaneous with the IRIX Magic desktop on SGI kit. SunView might count. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunView https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunView That was, what, 1985 or so?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    We are talking about XFCE and GNU/Linux window managers/desktops here, not about history of desktop environments across the computing industry.
    - lproven 4y ago
      We're not really. I wrote, in the story that this comment thread results from, that Xfce is the oldest Linux desktop. I stand by that, but I welcome correction if someone has evidence: citations. Compare: "The VW Beetle is the best selling car of all time." "No, the Honda Cub sold twice as many!" "Maybe so, but irrelevant. The VW Beetle is a car. The Honda Cub is a motorcycle." "But the Cub sold 100 million! The Beetle only sold 50M!" This may be true, but it is comparing different things. Yes, the Cub outsold the Beetle. But I am talking about cars. I'm not talking about motorcycles. I am sure you are right: the Cub sold more, but it's not a car, so it is irrelevant. "You are being unfair! The VW came first!" I am sure it did. But the VW Beetle is a car. I said, best selling car. Not motorcycle. Xfce is not a window manager. These is an Xfce WM. It is part of the product. But it is not just a WM. It is a desktop. Desktops came later than WMs. WMs are an older tech. But a desktop is not a WM, and a WM is not a desktop. There absolutely are older desktops, but they are not Linux desktops. They originated on other OSes and were subsequently ported to Linux. There absolutely were older desktops that were proprietary, the companies behind them are defunct, and they are gone now. That means they are not older, because they are dead. I am older than Christopgher Marlowe. He was born long long before me, but he died at 29. I am 55. Yes I was born later but I'm alive, and he is dead. There absolutely are older WMs, but WMs are not desktops. I do not really understand why you and @jeroen79 want to argue about this. I am not talking about all desktops on all OSes. I am not talking about WMs. If I were, these arguments would be valid. Is there a currently-maintained Linux-native desktop environment older than Xfce? Not a bare WM. Not something long dead. Not something from another OS. If yes, I am happy to admit I was wrong. If not, I stand by it.