5 ms·

Is wind an efficient way to produce electricity? Would we be producing wind turbines if there were 0 subsidies?

fredley 4y ago
Most windpower in the UK is offshore, and yes it's a great way to produce electricity, particularly here! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingd...
magnetic-recoil 4y ago
Offshore wind in the UK currently uses the "Contracts for Difference" payment mechanism. Operators bid to build turbines, and the best value operators get assigned areas of the sea. Then, they receive a fixed price from consumers for any electricity they generate (effectively, but there's market mechanisms in there that complicate the accounting). Initially, this was much more expensive than fossil electricity, but the price of turbines has dropped and the price of fossil electricity has grown, so now existing wind turbines are lowering the price consumers pay for electricity. New wind farms have achieved CfD rates of less than £0.04 per kWh, which is not a subsidy for the wind farm operators, but rather a subsidy for electricity consumers as this electricity is far cheaper than market rates.
- DrScientist 4y ago
  Adding to that, they are now looking at local hydrogen production from wind excess. While not nearly efficient as using the electricity directly, it's more efficient than throwing it away. Also the offshore farms sit in a pool of the raw material ( water ).
  - snickmy 4y ago
    for record, best electrolysis for hydrogen is a 50% efficiency end-to-end conversion.
    - DrScientist 4y ago
      Yep efficiency isn't great - but as I said, better then the efficiency of throwing excess away ( zero ). There is also value in the ability to store the energy - not as efficient as something like using water to store potential energy ( ~75% ), but there is value there. I'm not somebody who thinks it will be hydrogen everywhere - frankly electricity is easier to distribute and we already have a good infrastructure - but that's not to say it doesn't have a role.
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    They produce hydrogen from sea water? I had assumed fresh water sources, but I suppose salt water on an absolute scale is not that more loaded with particulates than anything else.
- RobinL 4y ago
  I've always wondered under the mechanism who has benefited from higher energy prices in the UK? With consumers currently paying high prices, who's getting the difference between the CfD price and the market price for energy generated by wind. Is it the government do you know?
  - magnetic-recoil 4y ago
    Wind farm operators sell their power onto the market (they can sell however they like, but the reference price is calculated according to the day-ahead spot price). Any imbalance between the agreed price and the reference price is sent to the LCCC (Low Carbon Contracts Company, part of the government). The LCCC then re-charges any CfD payments or surplus funds to the electricity suppliers. This should eventually work its way into an increase or reduction in household energy bills. So the end consumer should get the difference between the wholesale and CfD price, in theory. This is also taken into account when the OFGEM price cap is calculated. To answer your question about who benefits from high electricity prices - mostly fossil fuel producers, but also fossil power stations, legacy renewable generators with direct subsidies rather than CfDs, and electricity market traders exploiting the volatility.
    - RobinL 4y ago
      thanks - very interesting! I think that also clarifies something I'd found confusing: that the spot price is currently effectively determined by the price of gas, and yet the UK consumer is benefitting from the presence of wind generation (which generates much cheaper power than gas) If I've understood your post correctly, this is because the electricity companies don't directly pass the spot price onto consumers. Instead when the price to consumers is calculated, the part attributable to wind is taken account of at the lower price. So effectively the marginal price to consumers is actually affected by the average cost of generation (which is turn, from an economic point of view is arguably undesirable, because it means consumers don't have sharp enough incentives to save electricity at the margin)
      - magnetic-recoil 4y ago
pjc50 4y ago
It is now, while natural gas prices are high and the technology is mature. It did require a subsidy to get off the ground. Of course, you have to decide whether the consumption of a globally finite resource of "safe temperature" counts as a subsidy or not.
7952 4y ago
Wind turbines are capital intensive and the entire cost is upfront. Once the turbine is built it makes sense to sell it at whatever the current market rate is. That could be really low or really high. The main purpose of government support is to give some certainty about being able to pay off the debt. But that support has become less neccesary as costs go down and wholesale prices go up. Arguably the main benefit of setting prices upfront in the long term is avoiding price spikes and encouraging cost reduction. But there are also risks in terms of the cost of servicing debt as interest rates rise.
pydry 4y ago
It's very cost effective. A wind generated MWh costs about £25 while a nuclear MWh is more in the region of £120. If you use wind to generate electricity and use that to synthesize natural gas which you store and use to generate electricity the whole thing costs about £80-90.

Most windpower in the UK is offshore, and yes it's a great way to produce electricity, particularly here! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingd...

magnetic-recoil 4y ago

Offshore wind in the UK currently uses the "Contracts for Difference" payment mechanism. Operators bid to build turbines, and the best value operators get assigned areas of the sea. Then, they receive a fixed price from consumers for any electricity they generate (effectively, but there's market mechanisms in there that complicate the accounting). Initially, this was much more expensive than fossil electricity, but the price of turbines has dropped and the price of fossil electricity has grown, so now existing wind turbines are lowering the price consumers pay for electricity. New wind farms have achieved CfD rates of less than £0.04 per kWh, which is not a subsidy for the wind farm operators, but rather a subsidy for electricity consumers as this electricity is far cheaper than market rates.

DrScientist 4y ago
Adding to that, they are now looking at local hydrogen production from wind excess. While not nearly efficient as using the electricity directly, it's more efficient than throwing it away. Also the offshore farms sit in a pool of the raw material ( water ).
- snickmy 4y ago
  for record, best electrolysis for hydrogen is a 50% efficiency end-to-end conversion.
  - DrScientist 4y ago
    Yep efficiency isn't great - but as I said, better then the efficiency of throwing excess away ( zero ). There is also value in the ability to store the energy - not as efficient as something like using water to store potential energy ( ~75% ), but there is value there. I'm not somebody who thinks it will be hydrogen everywhere - frankly electricity is easier to distribute and we already have a good infrastructure - but that's not to say it doesn't have a role.
- fbdab103 4y ago
  They produce hydrogen from sea water? I had assumed fresh water sources, but I suppose salt water on an absolute scale is not that more loaded with particulates than anything else.
RobinL 4y ago
I've always wondered under the mechanism who has benefited from higher energy prices in the UK? With consumers currently paying high prices, who's getting the difference between the CfD price and the market price for energy generated by wind. Is it the government do you know?
- magnetic-recoil 4y ago
  Wind farm operators sell their power onto the market (they can sell however they like, but the reference price is calculated according to the day-ahead spot price). Any imbalance between the agreed price and the reference price is sent to the LCCC (Low Carbon Contracts Company, part of the government). The LCCC then re-charges any CfD payments or surplus funds to the electricity suppliers. This should eventually work its way into an increase or reduction in household energy bills. So the end consumer should get the difference between the wholesale and CfD price, in theory. This is also taken into account when the OFGEM price cap is calculated. To answer your question about who benefits from high electricity prices - mostly fossil fuel producers, but also fossil power stations, legacy renewable generators with direct subsidies rather than CfDs, and electricity market traders exploiting the volatility.
  - RobinL 4y ago
    thanks - very interesting! I think that also clarifies something I'd found confusing: that the spot price is currently effectively determined by the price of gas, and yet the UK consumer is benefitting from the presence of wind generation (which generates much cheaper power than gas) If I've understood your post correctly, this is because the electricity companies don't directly pass the spot price onto consumers. Instead when the price to consumers is calculated, the part attributable to wind is taken account of at the lower price. So effectively the marginal price to consumers is actually affected by the average cost of generation (which is turn, from an economic point of view is arguably undesirable, because it means consumers don't have sharp enough incentives to save electricity at the margin)
    - magnetic-recoil 4y ago

pjc50 4y ago

It is now, while natural gas prices are high and the technology is mature. It did require a subsidy to get off the ground. Of course, you have to decide whether the consumption of a globally finite resource of "safe temperature" counts as a subsidy or not.

7952 4y ago

Wind turbines are capital intensive and the entire cost is upfront. Once the turbine is built it makes sense to sell it at whatever the current market rate is. That could be really low or really high. The main purpose of government support is to give some certainty about being able to pay off the debt. But that support has become less neccesary as costs go down and wholesale prices go up. Arguably the main benefit of setting prices upfront in the long term is avoiding price spikes and encouraging cost reduction. But there are also risks in terms of the cost of servicing debt as interest rates rise.

pydry 4y ago

It's very cost effective. A wind generated MWh costs about £25 while a nuclear MWh is more in the region of £120. If you use wind to generate electricity and use that to synthesize natural gas which you store and use to generate electricity the whole thing costs about £80-90.