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Truth is stranger than fiction. After the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) was dissolved, the CIA transformed the lethal pill, or "L-pill," that the OSS had d

Truth is stranger than fiction. After the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) was dissolved, the CIA transformed the lethal pill, or "L-pill," that the OSS had developed into a suicide silver dollar, https://www.spymuseum.org/press/press-archive/2019-press-release/international-spy-museum-opens/#:~:text=Suicide%20Needle%20hidden%20in%20a,the%20Soviet%20Union%20in%201960 https://www.spymuseum.org/press/press-archive/2019-press-rel.... It had a tiny needle that delivered saxitoxin and/or botulinum toxin to the agent, giving them a fast and very painful death. AFAICT, there's no public record of how many of these were given out and how many people used them. But we do know of one famous case where someone didn't use it — Gary Powers. He had one of these silver dollars and he refused to use it. He chose capture and torture instead. This is what his suicide dollar probably looked like, https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/ae05260e61ba455d9eedb6513435c753.jpg https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/a... For me, personally, there's something very funny about the CIA turning one of the country's most recognisable symbols, the dollar, into a suicide pact.

andrewflnr 4y ago
Good grief, there wasn't a way to give them a fast and painless death? Or even moderately painful?
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  I guess you don't want that, because it may give people too much of an easy way out, giving up too soon when survival was still preferable for mission success.
  - Gys 4y ago
    That would not be my guess. From the state point of view keeping secrets might be much more important than one life.
    - Mordisquitos 4y ago
      Plus, the last thing the State would want is for their asset to have second thoughts about taking the suicide pill─“They may torture me soon and it will probably be extremely painful... but the pill will certainly be extremely painful! Maybe I should risk it”
      - hericium 4y ago
        Were the agents told that the death will be painful? I believe that organization such as the CIA would rather lie to its own agents to make sure they would poison themselves.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        I am sorry this thread is ridiculous. First, if they are detained, they will be strip searched long before any torture takes place. You either take it early or not at all - odds are everything will be taken away. Second, the last thing you want in such situation is ambiguity - people don't just commit suicide willy-nilly. Instructions must be very clear. Thirdly, either the agent has secret information that cannot be divulged, or they don't. This is known upfront before the mission. Any agent at high risk of capture is kept away from sensitive information, to minimise possible damage. Every spy and reconnaissance organisation work like that. As soon as agent is captured, damage control is put in place. Lastly, orders to commit suicide are not legally possible.
        hericium 4y ago
        > Lastly, orders to commit suicide are not legally possible. You do realize that we're talking about the CIA here, right?
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        What are you gonna do, threaten the guy with Death? :)
        4y ago
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    Suicide mechanisms are used after the mission has failed, either they are captured or about to be captured. Agents aren't going to use a suicide option while still able to operate. (Although an actor free to operate but for which there isn't a survival option may choose a suicide attack. There was an American kamikaze in WWII, he wasn't going to make it back to the carrier, the only possible rescue was the very fleet he was attacking.) When it comes down to a quick death by a suicide agent vs being tortured and then likely an unmarked grave it can be a reasonable option. Agents which aren't so likely to be put through the wringer and might be exchanged are another matter--Gary Powers had little reason to use his suicide option. He didn't have great secrets to be tortured for.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  I suspect it's a matter of "fast, painless, compact, reliable - choose three".
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    if it's agonising death, agent won't take it, so it is no longer reliable. They folled themselves. Too clever by half
    - krisoft 4y ago
      It is not like the agents will know if it is agonising or not. You just tell them it is painless. It is not like they are going to test it on themselves. If someone somehow ends up whitnessing a usage and they complain you tell them “this is very concerning, we are going to investigate. Maybe a bad batch? Or enemy action?” and then you classify the whole thing for 150 years. If there is such a widespread leak that you can’t do the above (for example one of your agents swallows poison direct on camera broadcast publicly) then you say to your agents: “Turns out it is not working as painlessly as we thought. Obviously we are not monsters, we couldn’t test it on live subjects. Discontinue old formulation, new painless formulation is being distributed.” And then you give them new pills with the same or nearly the same poison and visibly new packaging/concealment. But that is a last resort, only if there is too much grumbling amomg the rank and file.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        sounds like your main strategy is 'assume everyone working as a CIA agent is an idiot' and they don't catch on after working for many years?
        vintermann 4y ago
        "I work for an agency that routinely gains people's trust in order to betray it, but I trust them and they would never betray me" seems to be the default belief for this lot, so maybe it isn't so far fetched.
- miohtama 4y ago
  Probably still less painful than torture
- wrp 4y ago
  In the 1980s, I read that the GRU issued an injector they called "blissful death". The source was unreliable, but that's a starting point for research.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  Riffing on another comment, perhaps the poisons used have no known antidotes and that is why they are chosen even though they are painful. Otherwise they would probably be pointless since you could be revived.
picture 4y ago
So how does the poison work exactly? Why would it cause pain? (Genuinely curious and some quick searching doesn't lead to anything)
- meindnoch 4y ago
  It causes paralysis and death by suffocation.
- gusgus01 4y ago
  For botulinum, it's the toxin that causes botulism which can be viewed here: https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/symptoms.html https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/symptoms.html For saxitoxin, it's the toxin that's best known for causing paralytic shellfish poisoning. TL;DR: it attacks the bodies nerves and leads to muscle paralysis and can result in paralysis of the muscles needed to breath.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  cyanide is an enzyme poison - it stops all sorts of enzyme chains reactions from operating. as to why is it painful? well, that comes back to the question of why anything is painful.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > why is it painful? well, that comes back to the question of why anything is painful. This is such a jordan peterson style non-answer x 'what does it really mean to order a pizza"
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Not really. Pain is caused by things going wrong in your body. Poison causes things to go wrong. It’s not surprising most of them are painful.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        This is totally meaningless - carbon monoxide poisoning causes things to go wrong, and is painless death. Countless other examples.
zfxfr 4y ago
Now there exist drugs like carfentanyl. A very small amount is enough to kill.. It also even looks like a pleasant way to die.
- norvvryo 4y ago
  Bad idea. Opioids are way too easy to reverse.
  - refurb 4y ago
    For things like etorphine, you need special antagonists since Narcan won’t displace it from receptors. And with a really big overdose they may not have enough Narcan on hand to reverse it. I’m talking 100x the LD50.
Waterluvian 4y ago
I just looked up Gary Powers and it feels ridiculous that the CIA would ask or expect him to kill himself because his photography machine was shot down. He lived another 17 years and may have had a full life if he didn’t die of a helicopter accident.
- havblue 4y ago
  I believe Powers said that the decision of whether to take the pill was up to him, though the public did apparently think he should have killed himself to avoid the diplomatic incident.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    > the public did apparently think he should have killed himself this makes me feel again that there's a recurring phenomenon with humanity, where spending the assets (life, in this case) of others is seen as selfishly strategic
    - 082349872349872 4y ago
      One game theory result I remember is the hypothetical situation of two people dropped onto a grid with radios who must rendezvous. Apparently the game theoretical optimal strategy is to establish contact, inform the other person of one's location and the fact that one is destroying one's radio, then actually destroy the radio...
      - DFHippie 4y ago
        A different version has them needing to meet with no possibility of communication, only knowledge that each has the same map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)
      - havblue 4y ago
        I suspect that the game theory aspect of the u2 spying wasn't as well thought out. At least, they probably didn't think that anyone would actually survive being shot down from that height. Forget about how the pilot might act when captured.
coldtea 4y ago
>and how many people used them none?
neilv 4y ago
> For me, personally, there's something very funny about the CIA turning one of the country's most recognisable symbols, the dollar, into a suicide pact. An additional bit of funny is that the silver dollar in that photo is known as a Peace Dollar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dollar
mzs 4y ago
L-pill: >… Ogorodnik offered to write a full confession and asked for his pen. When the interrogator handed him the pen with a cleverly hidden cyanide pill in the cap, Ogorodnik bit on it and died soon after. He was said to have died before he hit the floor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dmitrievich_Ogorodnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dmitrievich_Ogorodni...
michael1999 4y ago
Now, people give good money to aestheticians to inject them with botox. The 20th c was wack.
BrotherBisquick 4y ago
Was Gary Powers tortured?
- lp0_on_fire 4y ago
  He was an American Air Force Pilot arrested and tried as a spy in the Soviet Union so I think it's safe to say he wasn't treated as an honored guest.
- showerst 4y ago
  According to his son he wasn't physically tortured, but subjected to psychological torture that we'd probably call 'enhanced interrogation' these days. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/gary-powers-secret-diary-soviet-capture-180956939/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/gary-...

andrewflnr 4y ago

Good grief, there wasn't a way to give them a fast and painless death? Or even moderately painful?

DocTomoe 4y ago
I guess you don't want that, because it may give people too much of an easy way out, giving up too soon when survival was still preferable for mission success.
- Gys 4y ago
  That would not be my guess. From the state point of view keeping secrets might be much more important than one life.
  - Mordisquitos 4y ago
    Plus, the last thing the State would want is for their asset to have second thoughts about taking the suicide pill─“They may torture me soon and it will probably be extremely painful... but the pill will certainly be extremely painful! Maybe I should risk it”
    - hericium 4y ago
      Were the agents told that the death will be painful? I believe that organization such as the CIA would rather lie to its own agents to make sure they would poison themselves.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      I am sorry this thread is ridiculous. First, if they are detained, they will be strip searched long before any torture takes place. You either take it early or not at all - odds are everything will be taken away. Second, the last thing you want in such situation is ambiguity - people don't just commit suicide willy-nilly. Instructions must be very clear. Thirdly, either the agent has secret information that cannot be divulged, or they don't. This is known upfront before the mission. Any agent at high risk of capture is kept away from sensitive information, to minimise possible damage. Every spy and reconnaissance organisation work like that. As soon as agent is captured, damage control is put in place. Lastly, orders to commit suicide are not legally possible.
      - hericium 4y ago
        > Lastly, orders to commit suicide are not legally possible. You do realize that we're talking about the CIA here, right?
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        What are you gonna do, threaten the guy with Death? :)
        4y ago
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  Suicide mechanisms are used after the mission has failed, either they are captured or about to be captured. Agents aren't going to use a suicide option while still able to operate. (Although an actor free to operate but for which there isn't a survival option may choose a suicide attack. There was an American kamikaze in WWII, he wasn't going to make it back to the carrier, the only possible rescue was the very fleet he was attacking.) When it comes down to a quick death by a suicide agent vs being tortured and then likely an unmarked grave it can be a reasonable option. Agents which aren't so likely to be put through the wringer and might be exchanged are another matter--Gary Powers had little reason to use his suicide option. He didn't have great secrets to be tortured for.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
I suspect it's a matter of "fast, painless, compact, reliable - choose three".
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  if it's agonising death, agent won't take it, so it is no longer reliable. They folled themselves. Too clever by half
  - krisoft 4y ago
    It is not like the agents will know if it is agonising or not. You just tell them it is painless. It is not like they are going to test it on themselves. If someone somehow ends up whitnessing a usage and they complain you tell them “this is very concerning, we are going to investigate. Maybe a bad batch? Or enemy action?” and then you classify the whole thing for 150 years. If there is such a widespread leak that you can’t do the above (for example one of your agents swallows poison direct on camera broadcast publicly) then you say to your agents: “Turns out it is not working as painlessly as we thought. Obviously we are not monsters, we couldn’t test it on live subjects. Discontinue old formulation, new painless formulation is being distributed.” And then you give them new pills with the same or nearly the same poison and visibly new packaging/concealment. But that is a last resort, only if there is too much grumbling amomg the rank and file.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      sounds like your main strategy is 'assume everyone working as a CIA agent is an idiot' and they don't catch on after working for many years?
      - vintermann 4y ago
        "I work for an agency that routinely gains people's trust in order to betray it, but I trust them and they would never betray me" seems to be the default belief for this lot, so maybe it isn't so far fetched.
miohtama 4y ago
Probably still less painful than torture
wrp 4y ago
In the 1980s, I read that the GRU issued an injector they called "blissful death". The source was unreliable, but that's a starting point for research.
ridgered4 4y ago
Riffing on another comment, perhaps the poisons used have no known antidotes and that is why they are chosen even though they are painful. Otherwise they would probably be pointless since you could be revived.

picture 4y ago

So how does the poison work exactly? Why would it cause pain? (Genuinely curious and some quick searching doesn't lead to anything)

meindnoch 4y ago
It causes paralysis and death by suffocation.
gusgus01 4y ago
For botulinum, it's the toxin that causes botulism which can be viewed here: https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/symptoms.html https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/symptoms.html For saxitoxin, it's the toxin that's best known for causing paralytic shellfish poisoning. TL;DR: it attacks the bodies nerves and leads to muscle paralysis and can result in paralysis of the muscles needed to breath.
zabzonk 4y ago
cyanide is an enzyme poison - it stops all sorts of enzyme chains reactions from operating. as to why is it painful? well, that comes back to the question of why anything is painful.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > why is it painful? well, that comes back to the question of why anything is painful. This is such a jordan peterson style non-answer x 'what does it really mean to order a pizza"
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Not really. Pain is caused by things going wrong in your body. Poison causes things to go wrong. It’s not surprising most of them are painful.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      This is totally meaningless - carbon monoxide poisoning causes things to go wrong, and is painless death. Countless other examples.

zfxfr 4y ago

Now there exist drugs like carfentanyl. A very small amount is enough to kill.. It also even looks like a pleasant way to die.

norvvryo 4y ago
Bad idea. Opioids are way too easy to reverse.
- refurb 4y ago
  For things like etorphine, you need special antagonists since Narcan won’t displace it from receptors. And with a really big overdose they may not have enough Narcan on hand to reverse it. I’m talking 100x the LD50.

Waterluvian 4y ago

I just looked up Gary Powers and it feels ridiculous that the CIA would ask or expect him to kill himself because his photography machine was shot down. He lived another 17 years and may have had a full life if he didn’t die of a helicopter accident.

havblue 4y ago
I believe Powers said that the decision of whether to take the pill was up to him, though the public did apparently think he should have killed himself to avoid the diplomatic incident.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  > the public did apparently think he should have killed himself this makes me feel again that there's a recurring phenomenon with humanity, where spending the assets (life, in this case) of others is seen as selfishly strategic
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    One game theory result I remember is the hypothetical situation of two people dropped onto a grid with radios who must rendezvous. Apparently the game theoretical optimal strategy is to establish contact, inform the other person of one's location and the fact that one is destroying one's radio, then actually destroy the radio...
    - DFHippie 4y ago
      A different version has them needing to meet with no possibility of communication, only knowledge that each has the same map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)
    - havblue 4y ago
      I suspect that the game theory aspect of the u2 spying wasn't as well thought out. At least, they probably didn't think that anyone would actually survive being shot down from that height. Forget about how the pilot might act when captured.

coldtea 4y ago

>and how many people used them none?

neilv 4y ago

> For me, personally, there's something very funny about the CIA turning one of the country's most recognisable symbols, the dollar, into a suicide pact. An additional bit of funny is that the silver dollar in that photo is known as a Peace Dollar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dollar

mzs 4y ago

L-pill: >… Ogorodnik offered to write a full confession and asked for his pen. When the interrogator handed him the pen with a cleverly hidden cyanide pill in the cap, Ogorodnik bit on it and died soon after. He was said to have died before he hit the floor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dmitrievich_Ogorodnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dmitrievich_Ogorodni...

michael1999 4y ago

Now, people give good money to aestheticians to inject them with botox. The 20th c was wack.

BrotherBisquick 4y ago

Was Gary Powers tortured?

lp0_on_fire 4y ago
He was an American Air Force Pilot arrested and tried as a spy in the Soviet Union so I think it's safe to say he wasn't treated as an honored guest.
showerst 4y ago
According to his son he wasn't physically tortured, but subjected to psychological torture that we'd probably call 'enhanced interrogation' these days. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/gary-powers-secret-diary-soviet-capture-180956939/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/gary-...