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Places like this are a good reason we need global tax minimums agreements. US is driving this currently at corporate level, which is the more important, but wo

Places like this are a good reason we need global tax minimums agreements. US is driving this currently at corporate level, which is the more important, but would be good to see on personal rates too. I think this is one of the most important global trade issues today, and it gets very little attention. If only selfishly, as we see the a continuing race to the bottom on corporate tax rates. Also that they tend to be well below personal rates these days plus this gap widening. Increasingly this tax burden needs to be picked up from citizens. I suspect this is a significant variable of the degrading working/middle class lifestyle. Would love to see more countries come together on this issue. Most of the time its significantly in the wests interest to make this happen, so shows that the corporate lobby has so much power here in that it doesn't. And generally its important for global trade to compete on a level playing field or we start to break the system and interest in it.

dmichulke 4y ago
How do you feel about price minimums, say for telco, gasoline, health care? I ask because taxes are the price you pay for (insert your country's services here).
- bilvar 4y ago
  No, taxes is the price I pay for bureaucrats and politicians to not starve. It's a kind of charity. All these services can be provided by businesses, and I can pay for them on a per-need basis.
  - dmichulke 4y ago
    I 100% agree with you, it's kind of the point that I'm trying to make above... Maybe I should have called it a price instead of the price.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    There are many many services that cannot be done by businesses. From the foundational regulatory framework and enforcement of laws that make substantial businesses possible in the first place, to more practical things like safety and security.
    - bilvar 4y ago
      That these cannot be done by businesses is just an assertion, re-enforcing the status quo. "The Machinery of Freedom"[0] is a book describing how a lot of these could work. I'm not yet sold that they would, but I'm not outright discarding the ideas. [0]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Capitalism/dp/1507785607 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Cap...
      - andsoitis 4y ago
        Oh I don’t disagree that there aren’t things that could rather be served by businesses. What I haven’t heard however are a couple of good examples (in a particular society) that are viable and would make a material positive dent, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear some good ideas, especially in jurisdictions where a govt does a lot.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > No, taxes is the price I pay for bureaucrats and politicians to not starve. It's a kind of charity. I feel like most people, including you, have absolutely no idea of how their taxes are spent. Unless you live in an absolute corrupt shit hole you're dead wrong
    - bilvar 4y ago
      No I have, but a lot of people - probably including you - take authorities and their budget committees at face-value when they report where they spend tax money.
vineyardmike 4y ago
I think this rant is a little tired, but I do agree with one point you made, and it’s been something I’ve been thinking a lot about. > Also that they tend to be well below personal rates these days plus this gap widening. Increasingly this tax burden needs to be picked up from citizens. I suspect this is a significant variable of the degrading working/middle class lifestyle. I think that we should radically raise corporate tax rate on profits, and provide marginally zero tax on any income (up to a large limit, eg $500k) that isn’t capital gains. This would shift the focus of corporations from increasing profits and stock price and instead put the focus on paying employees more. It was also shift corporate focus less on stock price rises and more on dividend increases (capital gains vs income). These two things seem like they’d provide a much more stable environment for workers. Paying employees more becomes the new tax write off. Employees benefit because they don’t worry about taxes and get paid more, and it reduced the economic benefit of keeping the money in the company instead.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >This would shift the focus of corporations from increasing profits and stock price and instead put the focus on paying employees more. Won't the corporations just make up for it by paying all the profits to their executives?
- temptemptemp111 4y ago
myroon5 4y ago
> corporate level, which is the more important Corporate income taxes only bring in ~5% of the US Federal budget, all the individual taxes have always been more substantial: https://taxfoundation.org/how-has-federal-revenue-changed-over-time/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-has-federal-revenue-changed-ov...
notright6 4y ago
- jiriknesl 4y ago
  Exactly. Top taxpayers already pay a lot (with all sin taxes, council taxes, VAT, corporate, income, CGT... sometimes even 75%). It is not fair to raise taxes even higher. In fact, governments should learn how to operate with way less.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  If you don't like tax, you can wonder what your life would have been if you grew up in a country with no infrastructure, education, healthcare and so on... Paying 50% in tax seems like a perfectly good deal considering that everything I own today, I owe it to my fellow citizens who paid tax.
  - notright6 4y ago
    - lm28469 4y ago
      It's a fact though, it's how it worked since basically as long as we lived in communities. You don't need an IQ over 100 to open an history book, you should give it a try
      - notright6 4y ago
  - khiqxj 4y ago
    how would police investigate random people for hypothetical crimes they need to make up to justify their job and shoot them when they pull out their wallet if they werent overfunded?
jiriknesl 4y ago
There's fantastic concept called competition. If country can do with less money it might attract more businesses. This pushes others to improve their operations too. Global tax minimums remove or soften this incentive which is a bad thing. Most governments are not efficient already and this will not help.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  There's a fantastic concept called racing to the bottom. Small countries can afford to be tax havens because even getting 1% of a multibillion company covers their needs well enough. Meanwhile, the country housing the thousands of workers, damaging roads, using infrastructure, healthcare, etc, get nothing. Global tax minimums are the only way we have a society that keeps functioning.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  > There's fantastic concept called competition. This isn't what is at play in the case of tax havens.
- lm28469 4y ago
  What you call competition other might call race to the bottom. It doesn't take a genius to see the problem either, look at companies like airbnb who barely pay any tax in countries they operate in because technically they just have a "customer service office" in said country while the money is moved to Luxembourg, Ireland, &c.
khiqxj 4y ago
> somoene in some country im not part of has money and it isnt taxed according to how my country says it should be taxed > therefore we need global tax minimum agreements how does this follow? this isnt reddit or 4chan; your particular philosophy isnt assumed to be truth.
- Gustomaximus 4y ago
  Why? Double Irish is a classic example. Countries can conduct business in one location and pay tax in another. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
  - khiqxj 4y ago
    so just change the definition of who needs to be taxed what to whatever you want in your country. at the end of the day, the company has the option to actually (not just for show) move wherever to another country if it doesn't like your tax. granted, i dont know how corpo rats think so i cant say whether they would not want to live outside the US or something. this doesnt mean there needs to be a global tax minimum. when i pay tax personally i am getting scammed (robbed). i dont work for a corpo like 99% of the users here that creates deliberately broken products nor do i get any funding from the government to spend on OLED screens while pretending its to boost the economy
abigail95 4y ago
This is sick. Just because I live in Singapore and pay about 20% income tax and zero corporate tax, I"m apparently degrading the working class lifestyle? Why does Singapore have better infrastructure and governance than your country? With no natural resources and no land. You cannot buy your way out of bad governance. If you want a better "lifestyle", elect a better government, the tax rate paid by people in foreign countries has nothing to do with it.
- Gustomaximus 4y ago
  Singapore is taking from other nations. Are you familiar with double Irish? Load of companies do this to run their business in one location and pay lower tax in another. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement Also FYI most companies in Singapore pay 17% tax, not zero. And you ask why singapore has good infrastructure, well ~$70k per capita GDP helps these things.

dmichulke 4y ago

How do you feel about price minimums, say for telco, gasoline, health care? I ask because taxes are the price you pay for (insert your country's services here).

bilvar 4y ago
No, taxes is the price I pay for bureaucrats and politicians to not starve. It's a kind of charity. All these services can be provided by businesses, and I can pay for them on a per-need basis.
- dmichulke 4y ago
  I 100% agree with you, it's kind of the point that I'm trying to make above... Maybe I should have called it a price instead of the price.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  There are many many services that cannot be done by businesses. From the foundational regulatory framework and enforcement of laws that make substantial businesses possible in the first place, to more practical things like safety and security.
  - bilvar 4y ago
    That these cannot be done by businesses is just an assertion, re-enforcing the status quo. "The Machinery of Freedom"[0] is a book describing how a lot of these could work. I'm not yet sold that they would, but I'm not outright discarding the ideas. [0]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Capitalism/dp/1507785607 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Cap...
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      Oh I don’t disagree that there aren’t things that could rather be served by businesses. What I haven’t heard however are a couple of good examples (in a particular society) that are viable and would make a material positive dent, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear some good ideas, especially in jurisdictions where a govt does a lot.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > No, taxes is the price I pay for bureaucrats and politicians to not starve. It's a kind of charity. I feel like most people, including you, have absolutely no idea of how their taxes are spent. Unless you live in an absolute corrupt shit hole you're dead wrong
  - bilvar 4y ago
    No I have, but a lot of people - probably including you - take authorities and their budget committees at face-value when they report where they spend tax money.

vineyardmike 4y ago

I think this rant is a little tired, but I do agree with one point you made, and it’s been something I’ve been thinking a lot about. > Also that they tend to be well below personal rates these days plus this gap widening. Increasingly this tax burden needs to be picked up from citizens. I suspect this is a significant variable of the degrading working/middle class lifestyle. I think that we should radically raise corporate tax rate on profits, and provide marginally zero tax on any income (up to a large limit, eg $500k) that isn’t capital gains. This would shift the focus of corporations from increasing profits and stock price and instead put the focus on paying employees more. It was also shift corporate focus less on stock price rises and more on dividend increases (capital gains vs income). These two things seem like they’d provide a much more stable environment for workers. Paying employees more becomes the new tax write off. Employees benefit because they don’t worry about taxes and get paid more, and it reduced the economic benefit of keeping the money in the company instead.

midoridensha 4y ago
>This would shift the focus of corporations from increasing profits and stock price and instead put the focus on paying employees more. Won't the corporations just make up for it by paying all the profits to their executives?
temptemptemp111 4y ago

myroon5 4y ago

> corporate level, which is the more important Corporate income taxes only bring in ~5% of the US Federal budget, all the individual taxes have always been more substantial: https://taxfoundation.org/how-has-federal-revenue-changed-over-time/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-has-federal-revenue-changed-ov...

notright6 4y ago

jiriknesl 4y ago
Exactly. Top taxpayers already pay a lot (with all sin taxes, council taxes, VAT, corporate, income, CGT... sometimes even 75%). It is not fair to raise taxes even higher. In fact, governments should learn how to operate with way less.
yodsanklai 4y ago
If you don't like tax, you can wonder what your life would have been if you grew up in a country with no infrastructure, education, healthcare and so on... Paying 50% in tax seems like a perfectly good deal considering that everything I own today, I owe it to my fellow citizens who paid tax.
- notright6 4y ago
  - lm28469 4y ago
    It's a fact though, it's how it worked since basically as long as we lived in communities. You don't need an IQ over 100 to open an history book, you should give it a try
    - notright6 4y ago
- khiqxj 4y ago
  how would police investigate random people for hypothetical crimes they need to make up to justify their job and shoot them when they pull out their wallet if they werent overfunded?

jiriknesl 4y ago

There's fantastic concept called competition. If country can do with less money it might attract more businesses. This pushes others to improve their operations too. Global tax minimums remove or soften this incentive which is a bad thing. Most governments are not efficient already and this will not help.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
There's a fantastic concept called racing to the bottom. Small countries can afford to be tax havens because even getting 1% of a multibillion company covers their needs well enough. Meanwhile, the country housing the thousands of workers, damaging roads, using infrastructure, healthcare, etc, get nothing. Global tax minimums are the only way we have a society that keeps functioning.
yodsanklai 4y ago
> There's fantastic concept called competition. This isn't what is at play in the case of tax havens.
lm28469 4y ago
What you call competition other might call race to the bottom. It doesn't take a genius to see the problem either, look at companies like airbnb who barely pay any tax in countries they operate in because technically they just have a "customer service office" in said country while the money is moved to Luxembourg, Ireland, &c.

khiqxj 4y ago

> somoene in some country im not part of has money and it isnt taxed according to how my country says it should be taxed > therefore we need global tax minimum agreements how does this follow? this isnt reddit or 4chan; your particular philosophy isnt assumed to be truth.

Gustomaximus 4y ago
Why? Double Irish is a classic example. Countries can conduct business in one location and pay tax in another. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
- khiqxj 4y ago
  so just change the definition of who needs to be taxed what to whatever you want in your country. at the end of the day, the company has the option to actually (not just for show) move wherever to another country if it doesn't like your tax. granted, i dont know how corpo rats think so i cant say whether they would not want to live outside the US or something. this doesnt mean there needs to be a global tax minimum. when i pay tax personally i am getting scammed (robbed). i dont work for a corpo like 99% of the users here that creates deliberately broken products nor do i get any funding from the government to spend on OLED screens while pretending its to boost the economy

abigail95 4y ago

This is sick. Just because I live in Singapore and pay about 20% income tax and zero corporate tax, I"m apparently degrading the working class lifestyle? Why does Singapore have better infrastructure and governance than your country? With no natural resources and no land. You cannot buy your way out of bad governance. If you want a better "lifestyle", elect a better government, the tax rate paid by people in foreign countries has nothing to do with it.

Gustomaximus 4y ago
Singapore is taking from other nations. Are you familiar with double Irish? Load of companies do this to run their business in one location and pay lower tax in another. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement Also FYI most companies in Singapore pay 17% tax, not zero. And you ask why singapore has good infrastructure, well ~$70k per capita GDP helps these things.