4 ms·

Most Monegasques are by and large not millionaires, but they are indeed taken care of by the welfare state very very well. However, they barely make up 25% of t

Most Monegasques are by and large not millionaires, but they are indeed taken care of by the welfare state very very well. However, they barely make up 25% of the residents, so they are overshadowed by the wealthier foreigners who set up residence in Monaco. Re: the mobile workforce, there's a tax treaty between Monaco and France (which was imposed by the latter after a total blockade of the former in the 1960s) by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco. People who set up fiscal residence in Monaco to avoid taxes are, therefore, not French.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
> by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. It's almost as if there's an agenda for a double standard here, where the system is rigged against the peasantry and for the benefit of wealthy elites. Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now.
- airtonix 4y ago
- shakow 4y ago
  1960's French government and current days French governments did not really have the same mindset on many subjects.
- snovv_crash 4y ago
  There are lots of French residents who work in Switzerland, based on the length of the border I'd hazard to guess a much larger number than Monaco. In the case of these, they are taxed in Switzerland, not in France, saving them a LOT of money. I've always wondered how that worked, because in Switzerland you are taxed based on the area you live, not the location of the company you work for.
  - lelag 4y ago
    Each cantons with a border with France have their own bilateral agreements. In most cases, income tax is payed in the country of residence but in Geneva in particular, income tax is paid locally. The party that collect the taxes is supposed to send back a part of it to the other party according to the agreements in place but there is lots of drama around the amounts owned.
  - tobi1449 4y ago
    French residents are most likely still paying income tax in France (and in Switzerland too), as France most likely has a bilateral tax agreement with Switzerland. They are also taxed according to where their company (or their main place of work) is located. French citizens living in Switzerland only pay taxes in Switzerland.
  - haspok 4y ago
    > ...not the location of the company you work for... No, that is exactly how it works if you are not resident in Switzerland. Quite logical IMHO. How else would you do it :)
  - gryn 4y ago
    > I've always wondered how that worked, because in Switzerland you are taxed based on the area you live are you sure it's based on where you live and not where your finances live ? ('residance fiscale') here a website that tells you where you have to file taxes depdending on where your work in Switzerland: [guides/fiscalite-frontaliers](https://www.allo-declaration.com/guides/fiscalite-frontaliers/ https://www.allo-declaration.com/guides/fiscalite-frontalier...)
  - 4y ago
- ulfw 4y ago
  There are no 'peasants' moving to Monaco for tax reasons.
- sgu999 4y ago
  > Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now This market is definitely ripe for disruption.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    My start-up sells IoT enabled guillotines you can control via blockchain. Interested?
    - blippage 4y ago
      "Your cutting blade is not compatible with this device. The guillotine has been disabled for safety reasons."
      - euroderf 4y ago
        "Each citizen must go under the blade. As the blade is released, your financial and social history are reviewed by our mostly-reliable mostly-fair A.I. for the possibility of pardon."
- seszett 4y ago
  > Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. Well, even if the current governments had the same policies as 60's France, they probably couldn't act because the Netherlands are in the EU and there are already laws to govern these things, that are not easily changed because they involve 27 countries. Monaco on the other hand is just one little non-EU country that is nominally independent but in reality utterly dependent on France (and indeed, only independent as long as France tolerates it). So it's much easier to pressure.
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    Based on colleagues working in Monaco (both locals and commuters), it was not a friendly agreement at all (since Monaco is just losing) - it was basically give us all your French banking / employment data or we will fucking invade you with army and end your little kingdom for good. French were/are not some nice baguette eating and coffee sipping polite 'bonjour monsieur' artists that visiting Paris as tourist may make you believe, rather colonialists to the core (at least people in government with actual power). And yes French treatment of even modestly wealthy is straight out of communist guidebook - vilify, tax to hell, make up laws that even break european treaties but ignore european courts rulings on those, blame on rich all mismanagement of vast (not only social) state wealth on population deemed lazy even by french citizens themselves (I have tons of french colleagues and none hired french workers when doing some home reconstruction and they were clear why). There are various protections in Monaco for local populations, companies have quotas on minimum mandatory hires from local population, so sometimes clueless people are hired to just sit on chair to get the numbers going, earning massive salaries (for France and western Europe at least). But its still well worth for the companies (mostly banks), some scenes are pretty surreal - 90+ senile guy barely coherent coming to the bank branch, accompanied by few 20-something models, taking literally full shopping bag worth of cash and heading right back to casino or yacht for next party. Definitely old rich money's place, overranked in my opinion but its mainly tax haven so thats not relevant.
- ovi256 4y ago
  Airbus is not a French company since 2014, when it was transformed into Airbus Group SE (Societas Europaea). The French state pushed for this, as well as for European trade and movement of capital, which made possible the capital flight to lower tax jurisdictions like the Netherlands.
- FredPret 4y ago
  > Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now. Jesus dude, you jumped from “tax policy is unfair” to “let’s chop off some heads”. That’s got to be be against HN rules.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

> by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. It's almost as if there's an agenda for a double standard here, where the system is rigged against the peasantry and for the benefit of wealthy elites. Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now.

airtonix 4y ago
shakow 4y ago
1960's French government and current days French governments did not really have the same mindset on many subjects.
snovv_crash 4y ago
There are lots of French residents who work in Switzerland, based on the length of the border I'd hazard to guess a much larger number than Monaco. In the case of these, they are taxed in Switzerland, not in France, saving them a LOT of money. I've always wondered how that worked, because in Switzerland you are taxed based on the area you live, not the location of the company you work for.
- lelag 4y ago
  Each cantons with a border with France have their own bilateral agreements. In most cases, income tax is payed in the country of residence but in Geneva in particular, income tax is paid locally. The party that collect the taxes is supposed to send back a part of it to the other party according to the agreements in place but there is lots of drama around the amounts owned.
- tobi1449 4y ago
  French residents are most likely still paying income tax in France (and in Switzerland too), as France most likely has a bilateral tax agreement with Switzerland. They are also taxed according to where their company (or their main place of work) is located. French citizens living in Switzerland only pay taxes in Switzerland.
- haspok 4y ago
  > ...not the location of the company you work for... No, that is exactly how it works if you are not resident in Switzerland. Quite logical IMHO. How else would you do it :)
- gryn 4y ago
  > I've always wondered how that worked, because in Switzerland you are taxed based on the area you live are you sure it's based on where you live and not where your finances live ? ('residance fiscale') here a website that tells you where you have to file taxes depdending on where your work in Switzerland: [guides/fiscalite-frontaliers](https://www.allo-declaration.com/guides/fiscalite-frontaliers/ https://www.allo-declaration.com/guides/fiscalite-frontalier...)
- 4y ago
ulfw 4y ago
There are no 'peasants' moving to Monaco for tax reasons.
sgu999 4y ago
> Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now This market is definitely ripe for disruption.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  My start-up sells IoT enabled guillotines you can control via blockchain. Interested?
  - blippage 4y ago
    "Your cutting blade is not compatible with this device. The guillotine has been disabled for safety reasons."
    - euroderf 4y ago
      "Each citizen must go under the blade. As the blade is released, your financial and social history are reviewed by our mostly-reliable mostly-fair A.I. for the possibility of pardon."
seszett 4y ago
> Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. Well, even if the current governments had the same policies as 60's France, they probably couldn't act because the Netherlands are in the EU and there are already laws to govern these things, that are not easily changed because they involve 27 countries. Monaco on the other hand is just one little non-EU country that is nominally independent but in reality utterly dependent on France (and indeed, only independent as long as France tolerates it). So it's much easier to pressure.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Based on colleagues working in Monaco (both locals and commuters), it was not a friendly agreement at all (since Monaco is just losing) - it was basically give us all your French banking / employment data or we will fucking invade you with army and end your little kingdom for good. French were/are not some nice baguette eating and coffee sipping polite 'bonjour monsieur' artists that visiting Paris as tourist may make you believe, rather colonialists to the core (at least people in government with actual power). And yes French treatment of even modestly wealthy is straight out of communist guidebook - vilify, tax to hell, make up laws that even break european treaties but ignore european courts rulings on those, blame on rich all mismanagement of vast (not only social) state wealth on population deemed lazy even by french citizens themselves (I have tons of french colleagues and none hired french workers when doing some home reconstruction and they were clear why). There are various protections in Monaco for local populations, companies have quotas on minimum mandatory hires from local population, so sometimes clueless people are hired to just sit on chair to get the numbers going, earning massive salaries (for France and western Europe at least). But its still well worth for the companies (mostly banks), some scenes are pretty surreal - 90+ senile guy barely coherent coming to the bank branch, accompanied by few 20-something models, taking literally full shopping bag worth of cash and heading right back to casino or yacht for next party. Definitely old rich money's place, overranked in my opinion but its mainly tax haven so thats not relevant.
ovi256 4y ago
Airbus is not a French company since 2014, when it was transformed into Airbus Group SE (Societas Europaea). The French state pushed for this, as well as for European trade and movement of capital, which made possible the capital flight to lower tax jurisdictions like the Netherlands.
FredPret 4y ago
> Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now. Jesus dude, you jumped from “tax policy is unfair” to “let’s chop off some heads”. That’s got to be be against HN rules.