4 ms·

When someone gets in a horrific crash because the were driving 50 over the speed limit, do you feel sorry for them? Or do you say that they "got what they dese

When someone gets in a horrific crash because the were driving 50 over the speed limit, do you feel sorry for them? Or do you say that they "got what they deserved" not just for being individually reckless, but also for selfishly putting other people on the roads in danger? Ask yourself: Before COVID, in 2019, if you saw an 18 year old's car wrapped around a tree on the news clearly due to excessive speeding, did you lament their predicament? Did you say "they had an individual right to drive as fast as they thought they could handle", or did you laugh and say that they got what they deserved? Be honest in your response.

TrevorJ 4y ago
Your example elides the fact that the vaccine situation was about risk-benefit analysis in many people's minds. A more appropriate example might be a situation where someone ran their car off the road because they perceived (possibly incorrectly) some danger that they were attempting to avoid.
- anotherevan 4y ago
  And quite possibly ploughing into a crowd of pedestrians in the process.
  - taolegal 4y ago
    nah in this case all those pedestrians have an anti-car force field
    - anotherevan 4y ago
      At the risk of really straining the metaphor, one of the arguments is that not all the pedestrians are able to be fitted with those force fields. The force fields are also not 100% full-proof, although they can help reduce the impact.
      - taolegal 4y ago
        Let's extend the metaphor even further, when you turn on the force field many people get hurt or sick sometimes even for days.
      - Jensson 4y ago
        So then you heckle the pedestrians without a forcefield for not getting one? That is what we are talking about here, why would you do that?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        anotherevan 4y ago
        Dropping the metaphor, absolutely not looking to heckle those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (those pedestrians unable to be fitted with forcefields). The wilfully unvaccinated (the "ran their car off the road because they perceived (possibly incorrectly) some danger that they were attempting to avoid" group) are making it harder for those that are medically unable and those with chronic health concerns as the less virus circulating the less risk for the more vulnerable among us. While this generates feeling of ill-will within me, I personally am not advocating the heckling of anyone. My, "not 100% full-proof, although they can help reduce the impact," analogy was addressing that while it is still possible to catch COVID even if you are fully vaccinated, it is less likely and usually the severity will be less than it will have been otherwise if you do catch it.
        caeril 4y ago
        The vaccines were never sterilizing. The best estimates I've seen for transmission attenuation are around 15%, primarily due to shortening the duration of being a carrier, with an additional small effect for viral load reduction. Fifteen percent transmission attenuation is a huge contrast to the public health messaging during much of the vaccination campaign, which was that vaccination would invariably protect the vulnerable. It never did, and public health experts knew it. Is 15% better than zero? Sure. But to claim that vaccination would protect others is and was a total lie, or if you want to be more charitable, only 85% of a total lie.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
I think a distinction needs to be made between rationalizing tragedy through a sense of cosmic justice and hiding cruelty behind a personal sense of righteousness. That 18 year old in your example may very well have 'gotten what they deserved', but I would still lament that their life was cut short. I certainly wouldn't feel a smug sense of satisfaction that I'm still alive because I drive the speed limit. I wouldn't share the experience or seek validation on social media. I would be okay with 'making an example of him' but only in a matter of fact way meant to educate others. Those driver's ed videos that show real life crash footage do not mock the victims when they seek to educate people.
disambiguation 4y ago
This isn't a good analogy given "people driving the speed limit" can also get and spread Covid and cause extremely negative outcomes. Not wearing a seat-belt is perhaps a more accurate metaphor, given the individual assumes the majority of the risk. Regardless all you're doing here is trying to justify a bad attitude, and proving the GPs point.
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  Wearing sealt-belt still wont protect you from possibly killing anyone.
- jiggawatts 4y ago
  Getting COVID while unvaccinated makes you much more sick, and hence much more likely to spread it to other people. This is why China is still under lockdown, and most other (highly vaccinated) countries aren't. In places with no speed limit enforcement, even people that drive slowly are killed more often. How is this difficult to understand? Vaccines, masks, hand-washing, etc... are not just about you!
  - chrismcb 4y ago
    Personally works love to see the research on that assertion. If you are unvaccinated and get sick, you are more likely to be symptomatic and stay home. On the other hand if you are vaccinated you are more likely to be asymptomatic and socialize and therefore more likely to spread it. Unfortunately I don't know the numbers. How much more likely are you to be asymptomatic if you are vaccinated?

TrevorJ 4y ago

Your example elides the fact that the vaccine situation was about risk-benefit analysis in many people's minds. A more appropriate example might be a situation where someone ran their car off the road because they perceived (possibly incorrectly) some danger that they were attempting to avoid.

anotherevan 4y ago
And quite possibly ploughing into a crowd of pedestrians in the process.
- taolegal 4y ago
  nah in this case all those pedestrians have an anti-car force field
  - anotherevan 4y ago
    At the risk of really straining the metaphor, one of the arguments is that not all the pedestrians are able to be fitted with those force fields. The force fields are also not 100% full-proof, although they can help reduce the impact.
    - taolegal 4y ago
      Let's extend the metaphor even further, when you turn on the force field many people get hurt or sick sometimes even for days.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      So then you heckle the pedestrians without a forcefield for not getting one? That is what we are talking about here, why would you do that?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - anotherevan 4y ago
        Dropping the metaphor, absolutely not looking to heckle those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (those pedestrians unable to be fitted with forcefields). The wilfully unvaccinated (the "ran their car off the road because they perceived (possibly incorrectly) some danger that they were attempting to avoid" group) are making it harder for those that are medically unable and those with chronic health concerns as the less virus circulating the less risk for the more vulnerable among us. While this generates feeling of ill-will within me, I personally am not advocating the heckling of anyone. My, "not 100% full-proof, although they can help reduce the impact," analogy was addressing that while it is still possible to catch COVID even if you are fully vaccinated, it is less likely and usually the severity will be less than it will have been otherwise if you do catch it.
        caeril 4y ago
        The vaccines were never sterilizing. The best estimates I've seen for transmission attenuation are around 15%, primarily due to shortening the duration of being a carrier, with an additional small effect for viral load reduction. Fifteen percent transmission attenuation is a huge contrast to the public health messaging during much of the vaccination campaign, which was that vaccination would invariably protect the vulnerable. It never did, and public health experts knew it. Is 15% better than zero? Sure. But to claim that vaccination would protect others is and was a total lie, or if you want to be more charitable, only 85% of a total lie.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

I think a distinction needs to be made between rationalizing tragedy through a sense of cosmic justice and hiding cruelty behind a personal sense of righteousness. That 18 year old in your example may very well have 'gotten what they deserved', but I would still lament that their life was cut short. I certainly wouldn't feel a smug sense of satisfaction that I'm still alive because I drive the speed limit. I wouldn't share the experience or seek validation on social media. I would be okay with 'making an example of him' but only in a matter of fact way meant to educate others. Those driver's ed videos that show real life crash footage do not mock the victims when they seek to educate people.

disambiguation 4y ago

This isn't a good analogy given "people driving the speed limit" can also get and spread Covid and cause extremely negative outcomes. Not wearing a seat-belt is perhaps a more accurate metaphor, given the individual assumes the majority of the risk. Regardless all you're doing here is trying to justify a bad attitude, and proving the GPs point.

t0bia_s 4y ago
Wearing sealt-belt still wont protect you from possibly killing anyone.
jiggawatts 4y ago
Getting COVID while unvaccinated makes you much more sick, and hence much more likely to spread it to other people. This is why China is still under lockdown, and most other (highly vaccinated) countries aren't. In places with no speed limit enforcement, even people that drive slowly are killed more often. How is this difficult to understand? Vaccines, masks, hand-washing, etc... are not just about you!
- chrismcb 4y ago
  Personally works love to see the research on that assertion. If you are unvaccinated and get sick, you are more likely to be symptomatic and stay home. On the other hand if you are vaccinated you are more likely to be asymptomatic and socialize and therefore more likely to spread it. Unfortunately I don't know the numbers. How much more likely are you to be asymptomatic if you are vaccinated?