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Aside from many sane and clever design choices, a key feature of Zig is that it's not Rust. Why does it matter? Because (some of) the Rust community is turnin

Aside from many sane and clever design choices, a key feature of Zig is that it's not Rust. Why does it matter? Because (some of) the Rust community is turning out to be toxic and repulsive. Zig is different player in the same space (C/C++ replacement) with a much less toxic community.

recuter 4y ago
What makes the Rust community toxic and repulsive and what is to stop the Zig community from becoming such in the future?
- stephc_int13 4y ago
  On almost any C/C++ or Zig related discussion happening on HN or Twitter you'll find some random Rust evangelist asking why people are still using a "memory unsafe" language to build things. Implying, basically, that any non-Rust system programming language is obsolete. (and should maybe even be considered harmful) I find that deeply annoying. I don't have predictions about the future; the Zig community is not toxic for now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Ygg2 4y ago
    > why people are still using a "memory unsafe" That's a fair question imo. You're tossing the baby with bath water. Because that other person recommended Rust. Rather than Ada/C#. In 2022 any fault that can be used will be misused, so why use a language that might accidentally allow a CVE?
    - geocar 4y ago
      > That's a fair question imo. Are you willing to be convinced that you're wrong? Like completely, totally wrong about the value and goodness of "memory safety". Premise. Conclusion. Everything. If you're not, then no, it's not a fair question at all. It's just bait.
      - Ygg2 4y ago
        > Are you willing to be convinced that you're wrong? Yes. But you have to prove that your value proposition, doesn't lead to horrible failure down the line. I.e. We need to make software fast, security be damned is not a valid argument.
        geocar 4y ago
        > But you have to prove that your value proposition, doesn't lead to horrible failure down the line. No I do not. My software is done, it has run for decades on the Internet, making me money; For whatever you could mean by "horrible failure", what I am doing either doesn't lead to it, or it's clearly not that bad. > ... is not a valid argument We're not having an argument; You want to ask a question, I can give you an answer, but there's nothing here to argue: I'm ``using a "memory unsafe"´´ language because I can write secure programs that run quickly with them, and I don't live in a Harrison Bergeron world. This is about why you can't yet, and really doesn't have anything to do with me.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Then you thankfully don't have to worry about your local jurisdiction catching up with the times of software liability. https://www2.deloitte.com/dl/en/pages/legal/articles/it-sicherheitsgesetz-kritis-verordnung.html https://www2.deloitte.com/dl/en/pages/legal/articles/it-sich... Eventually all countries will have similar laws.
        geocar 4y ago
        Germany is not going to make illegal the selling of software that contains components written in C.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        No, but it requires covering for fixes, free of charge, in special security critical infrastructures. Software company bares the cost of producing faulty software. When it touches the bank, many companies will start considering alternatives. In fact, this is what drove Microsoft et al to start finally embracing other stacks, the amount of money burned fixing exploits for free in OS updates.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  Nothing. Every language once it grows beyond a certain point will it have its share of cooks. 1% of people are psychopaths. So in 10,000 people you have hundred psychos. GP is right. In a memey, stereotype, sort of way. But, Rust community generally holds people evangelizing Rust by RIIR (rewrite it in Rust) in high disdain. That said what C/C++ (and other memory unsafe lang) people can't seem to understand is that unlimited Undefined behavior is a trainwreck, and that Rust offers much, much more than just peace of mind regarding memory safety. And no. Just write better code doesn't work. It feels surreal. Like imagine you are driving a car with seatbelts and airbags. And everyone is saying. "Well I can just drive better and the belt is annoying. Doesn't allow me to get switch seats while driving. And it won't help if you fall in river, so it's useless. Plus brakes make you go slower" I decided that explaining and education is a lost cause. Let evolution sort them out.
  - lenkite 4y ago
    There is definitely secure software written in C/C++ though. See qmail http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html.
  - hitekker 4y ago
    I like how this comment starts out claiming every language has zealots, then it says Rust disdains zealots, and then proceeds into Rust zealotry.
    - Ygg2 4y ago
      Sigh. First nice strawman. Guess you are also helping up your <favorite language/niche> toxicity numbers. Har, har. Second it's not Rust zealotry - maybe memory safety zealotry, but my reasons are well corroborated at this point (see Android safety issues with native code). Use any memory safe language (C#, Java, Ada...) that fits your needs. Just stop pretending memory unsafe languages have no issues, and that it's all programmer's fault, i.e. just code better/ don't make mistakes/ don't hold it wrong.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
The rust community can tend towards smugness. And the evangelism on social media can be a bit much. But I am indebted to quite a few people on the rust discord (or one of the rust discords), who have been kind enough to share their knowledge with me. Nothing but nice things to say about them. I guess at this point if you dont like one rust community, find another. Theres enough of them now.
- Arnavion 4y ago
  The zealots are always the loudest members of the communities. With Rust it's the "safety" zealots. With golang it's the "simplicity" zealots. With C++ it's the "old is gold" zealots. And so on. Just ignore the communities. Judge the languages on what they do for you.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    I am not a zealot as I do not really "love" any language. I have used many languages and my "love" changes depending on the nature of the project / task within the project or sometimes client insists on particular one. Language to me is a tool like a screwdriver and while I do have personal preferences as long as the language is not atrociously bad / not suitable for the task I do not really care. I am kind of in the "old is gold" camp but not because I do not want to learn new language (I actually do) but because this language needs to offer significant benefits. If I am to use Rust it would be for writing enterprise backends as this is what I use this type of language for at the moment. Currently I am using C++ for this. When I look at using Rust for the same purpose I see less expressive language with less ecosystem comparatively to C++ and need to dance under fresh moon while sacrificing virgin to accomplish some simple things. All for the benefit of memory safety without loosing performance. Current project is already 3 years old and I've yet to discover any safety related issues in it (leak, range error, use after free etc.). Modern C++ in my opinion provides enough scaffolding to write reasonably safe programs on the language / library level and with things like address sanitizers. So switching to Rust would not really give me any ROI on investment. If client wants it in Rust and pays for it then sure. Otherwise I have more interesting things to learn. I am being paid for designing and implementing products, not for being expert in particular language.
timeon 4y ago
> with a much less toxic community. Most people in Rust community do not even know about Zig, while some of them are supporting Zig. I know it is anecdote but I haven't found the opposite to be true. It is always someone from Zig community bashing on Rust. So even it is smaller/younger community then Rust it can be already pretty toxic. And there are not many sings to address this issue (apart from creator of Zig who seems to be really nice person).
- gompertz 4y ago
  Zig community also bashes V to no avail. I definitely find them more toxic than Rust. The Zig Discord channel is very painful to witness.

recuter 4y ago

What makes the Rust community toxic and repulsive and what is to stop the Zig community from becoming such in the future?

stephc_int13 4y ago
On almost any C/C++ or Zig related discussion happening on HN or Twitter you'll find some random Rust evangelist asking why people are still using a "memory unsafe" language to build things. Implying, basically, that any non-Rust system programming language is obsolete. (and should maybe even be considered harmful) I find that deeply annoying. I don't have predictions about the future; the Zig community is not toxic for now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Ygg2 4y ago
  > why people are still using a "memory unsafe" That's a fair question imo. You're tossing the baby with bath water. Because that other person recommended Rust. Rather than Ada/C#. In 2022 any fault that can be used will be misused, so why use a language that might accidentally allow a CVE?
  - geocar 4y ago
    > That's a fair question imo. Are you willing to be convinced that you're wrong? Like completely, totally wrong about the value and goodness of "memory safety". Premise. Conclusion. Everything. If you're not, then no, it's not a fair question at all. It's just bait.
    - Ygg2 4y ago
      > Are you willing to be convinced that you're wrong? Yes. But you have to prove that your value proposition, doesn't lead to horrible failure down the line. I.e. We need to make software fast, security be damned is not a valid argument.
      - geocar 4y ago
        > But you have to prove that your value proposition, doesn't lead to horrible failure down the line. No I do not. My software is done, it has run for decades on the Internet, making me money; For whatever you could mean by "horrible failure", what I am doing either doesn't lead to it, or it's clearly not that bad. > ... is not a valid argument We're not having an argument; You want to ask a question, I can give you an answer, but there's nothing here to argue: I'm ``using a "memory unsafe"´´ language because I can write secure programs that run quickly with them, and I don't live in a Harrison Bergeron world. This is about why you can't yet, and really doesn't have anything to do with me.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Then you thankfully don't have to worry about your local jurisdiction catching up with the times of software liability. https://www2.deloitte.com/dl/en/pages/legal/articles/it-sicherheitsgesetz-kritis-verordnung.html https://www2.deloitte.com/dl/en/pages/legal/articles/it-sich... Eventually all countries will have similar laws.
        geocar 4y ago
        Germany is not going to make illegal the selling of software that contains components written in C.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        No, but it requires covering for fixes, free of charge, in special security critical infrastructures. Software company bares the cost of producing faulty software. When it touches the bank, many companies will start considering alternatives. In fact, this is what drove Microsoft et al to start finally embracing other stacks, the amount of money burned fixing exploits for free in OS updates.
Ygg2 4y ago
Nothing. Every language once it grows beyond a certain point will it have its share of cooks. 1% of people are psychopaths. So in 10,000 people you have hundred psychos. GP is right. In a memey, stereotype, sort of way. But, Rust community generally holds people evangelizing Rust by RIIR (rewrite it in Rust) in high disdain. That said what C/C++ (and other memory unsafe lang) people can't seem to understand is that unlimited Undefined behavior is a trainwreck, and that Rust offers much, much more than just peace of mind regarding memory safety. And no. Just write better code doesn't work. It feels surreal. Like imagine you are driving a car with seatbelts and airbags. And everyone is saying. "Well I can just drive better and the belt is annoying. Doesn't allow me to get switch seats while driving. And it won't help if you fall in river, so it's useless. Plus brakes make you go slower" I decided that explaining and education is a lost cause. Let evolution sort them out.
- lenkite 4y ago
  There is definitely secure software written in C/C++ though. See qmail http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html.
- hitekker 4y ago
  I like how this comment starts out claiming every language has zealots, then it says Rust disdains zealots, and then proceeds into Rust zealotry.
  - Ygg2 4y ago
    Sigh. First nice strawman. Guess you are also helping up your <favorite language/niche> toxicity numbers. Har, har. Second it's not Rust zealotry - maybe memory safety zealotry, but my reasons are well corroborated at this point (see Android safety issues with native code). Use any memory safe language (C#, Java, Ada...) that fits your needs. Just stop pretending memory unsafe languages have no issues, and that it's all programmer's fault, i.e. just code better/ don't make mistakes/ don't hold it wrong.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

The rust community can tend towards smugness. And the evangelism on social media can be a bit much. But I am indebted to quite a few people on the rust discord (or one of the rust discords), who have been kind enough to share their knowledge with me. Nothing but nice things to say about them. I guess at this point if you dont like one rust community, find another. Theres enough of them now.

Arnavion 4y ago
The zealots are always the loudest members of the communities. With Rust it's the "safety" zealots. With golang it's the "simplicity" zealots. With C++ it's the "old is gold" zealots. And so on. Just ignore the communities. Judge the languages on what they do for you.
- FpUser 4y ago
  I am not a zealot as I do not really "love" any language. I have used many languages and my "love" changes depending on the nature of the project / task within the project or sometimes client insists on particular one. Language to me is a tool like a screwdriver and while I do have personal preferences as long as the language is not atrociously bad / not suitable for the task I do not really care. I am kind of in the "old is gold" camp but not because I do not want to learn new language (I actually do) but because this language needs to offer significant benefits. If I am to use Rust it would be for writing enterprise backends as this is what I use this type of language for at the moment. Currently I am using C++ for this. When I look at using Rust for the same purpose I see less expressive language with less ecosystem comparatively to C++ and need to dance under fresh moon while sacrificing virgin to accomplish some simple things. All for the benefit of memory safety without loosing performance. Current project is already 3 years old and I've yet to discover any safety related issues in it (leak, range error, use after free etc.). Modern C++ in my opinion provides enough scaffolding to write reasonably safe programs on the language / library level and with things like address sanitizers. So switching to Rust would not really give me any ROI on investment. If client wants it in Rust and pays for it then sure. Otherwise I have more interesting things to learn. I am being paid for designing and implementing products, not for being expert in particular language.

timeon 4y ago

> with a much less toxic community. Most people in Rust community do not even know about Zig, while some of them are supporting Zig. I know it is anecdote but I haven't found the opposite to be true. It is always someone from Zig community bashing on Rust. So even it is smaller/younger community then Rust it can be already pretty toxic. And there are not many sings to address this issue (apart from creator of Zig who seems to be really nice person).

gompertz 4y ago
Zig community also bashes V to no avail. I definitely find them more toxic than Rust. The Zig Discord channel is very painful to witness.