2 ms·

The issue is that the overwhelming majority (>99%) of people who choose not to vaccinate, do so for bad reasons, which amounts to making an uninformed medical d

The issue is that the overwhelming majority (>99%) of people who choose not to vaccinate, do so for bad reasons, which amounts to making an uninformed medical decision, and one that adversely impacts other people in addition to themselves. These people are what the controversy is actually about. I really don't think that's what is going on. I used to be on an antivax list (for unrelated reasons -- I am not an antivaxxer) and these were people with serious health problems and loved ones with serious health problems who had been treated terribly by extended family, the medical system, etc. and they were desperate to be heard by someone who believed them that "This vaccine is a real and serious problem for me/my loved ones!" and the "nutters" were the only ones giving them any support. I didn't get a proper diagnosis for my condition until my mid thirties. I was treated like a hypochondriac before that, among other things. Not everyone is fortunate to know what their medical issue is yet. Many people who have real issues with vaccines simply don't know a good means to argue for their right to use their own best judgement, make their own medical decisions and try to take care of themselves and they turn to whatever "support" systems they can find, which aren't always a good means to achieve their ends.

mindslight 4y ago
Yes, it's important to not deprecate individuals' personal informed good faith opinions in favor of the top-down overprescriptive medical system. But this concern doesn't apply to the main contingent of unvaccinated, either. The sheer majority of the vaccine hesitant have had their head pumped full of nonsense by the anti-American narratives of Fox News and its ilk, then validated by Facebook. The common refrain isn't one of not being able to get vaccinated for any specific medical concern. Rather in the best case it falls back to ambiguous FUD, and often involves group identity and not giving in to those other people. And yes, it sucks that the legitimately unvaccinated can get lumped in with those adding to a public health problem as some misguided political statement. As a libertarian, I'm personally quite frustrated at the damage they've done to the general concept of freedom. But that's all the more reason to call it out for the anti-rationality that it is, rather than letting them continue to burn goodwill towards legitimate good faith points by hiding behind them in bad faith.
- ifyoubuildit 4y ago
  > But this concern doesn't apply to the main contingent of unvaccinated, either. > The sheer majority of the vaccine hesitant have had their head pumped full of nonsense by the anti-American narratives of Fox News and its ilk, then validated by Facebook I believe that you honestly believe this, but as a living counter example of what you describe (don't watch infotainment style news for anything but entertainment, made my decision based on available studies), I wonder how you have gone about validating that perception? Is there a chance that you're assuming the loud cartoon characters you see on social media, or a few of your friends/family/coworkers are representative of the wider population? Does this "main contingent" really make up the bulk of this group? Or are they just the most offensive, and therefore most noticeable?
  - epgui 4y ago
    I mean, I can’t speak for the other commenter, but there are a ton of papers studying the interaction of political beliefs and both generally anti-science views as well as opposition to public health guidance.
    - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
      I think we're not quite on the same page. The comment I was responding to mentioned "the unvaccinated" and "the vaccine hesitant", I'm assuming specifically with respect to covid vaccines. I know a lot of people immediately translate that to "anti-science" or "antivax" (a word that I really think has lost all usefulness on account of everyone having a different set of people in mind when they use it), and/or conservative/republican/maga whatever, but again, as a living counter example of that, that translation doesn't happen in my head, and it makes me do a double take when I see it. So my question for parent wasn't "do conservatives/republicans/infotainment viewers exist in large numbers?". It was "how many of the unvaccinated/vaccine hesitant are the sort of people that make it onto your radar?" Obviously you can't miss the crazy uncles on your social feeds, or the cartoon characters that pundits love to cash in on, and it's easy to think the world is nothing but those people. What you don't see are the people like me that are desperately hoping the topic doesn't come up in conversation because it's basically the equivalent of bringing up abortion when you're around the water cooler.

mindslight 4y ago

Yes, it's important to not deprecate individuals' personal informed good faith opinions in favor of the top-down overprescriptive medical system. But this concern doesn't apply to the main contingent of unvaccinated, either. The sheer majority of the vaccine hesitant have had their head pumped full of nonsense by the anti-American narratives of Fox News and its ilk, then validated by Facebook. The common refrain isn't one of not being able to get vaccinated for any specific medical concern. Rather in the best case it falls back to ambiguous FUD, and often involves group identity and not giving in to those other people. And yes, it sucks that the legitimately unvaccinated can get lumped in with those adding to a public health problem as some misguided political statement. As a libertarian, I'm personally quite frustrated at the damage they've done to the general concept of freedom. But that's all the more reason to call it out for the anti-rationality that it is, rather than letting them continue to burn goodwill towards legitimate good faith points by hiding behind them in bad faith.

ifyoubuildit 4y ago
> But this concern doesn't apply to the main contingent of unvaccinated, either. > The sheer majority of the vaccine hesitant have had their head pumped full of nonsense by the anti-American narratives of Fox News and its ilk, then validated by Facebook I believe that you honestly believe this, but as a living counter example of what you describe (don't watch infotainment style news for anything but entertainment, made my decision based on available studies), I wonder how you have gone about validating that perception? Is there a chance that you're assuming the loud cartoon characters you see on social media, or a few of your friends/family/coworkers are representative of the wider population? Does this "main contingent" really make up the bulk of this group? Or are they just the most offensive, and therefore most noticeable?
- epgui 4y ago
  I mean, I can’t speak for the other commenter, but there are a ton of papers studying the interaction of political beliefs and both generally anti-science views as well as opposition to public health guidance.
  - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
    I think we're not quite on the same page. The comment I was responding to mentioned "the unvaccinated" and "the vaccine hesitant", I'm assuming specifically with respect to covid vaccines. I know a lot of people immediately translate that to "anti-science" or "antivax" (a word that I really think has lost all usefulness on account of everyone having a different set of people in mind when they use it), and/or conservative/republican/maga whatever, but again, as a living counter example of that, that translation doesn't happen in my head, and it makes me do a double take when I see it. So my question for parent wasn't "do conservatives/republicans/infotainment viewers exist in large numbers?". It was "how many of the unvaccinated/vaccine hesitant are the sort of people that make it onto your radar?" Obviously you can't miss the crazy uncles on your social feeds, or the cartoon characters that pundits love to cash in on, and it's easy to think the world is nothing but those people. What you don't see are the people like me that are desperately hoping the topic doesn't come up in conversation because it's basically the equivalent of bringing up abortion when you're around the water cooler.