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Binary log files is another example of something that could have advantages in theory but never seems to work well in practice. What used to be "tail /var/log/n

Binary log files is another example of something that could have advantages in theory but never seems to work well in practice. What used to be "tail /var/log/nginx.log" is now man journalctl journalctl -u nginx <G to skip to latest, ctrl+C because it's taking too long> journalctl | grep nginx <wait...> go back to man page to look for more options to search etc

traverseda 4y ago
One of my earliest experiences with systemd's binary log files was on an embedded system I had ~~chrooted~~ systemd-nspawned into, and every time I tried to get the log output it would segfault (some issue with qemu-static probably). Very frustrating experience. Really feels like "Embrace, extend, extinguish" but the thing they're extinguishing is unix-as-a-programming-environemnt.
- sliken 4y ago
  Or a Redhat plan to generate more consulting/support income. Ever wonder why Oracle products were so hard to install/maintain?
  - egberts1 4y ago
    It's the IBM way. Everything be in 4-digit or 5-digit error code. Need to RTFM for such codes. Or worse, StackOverflow them.
  - yawaramin 4y ago
    Yes, a for-profit corporation has the nefarious plan to... checks notes ...try to earn more revenues. We certainly can't stand for that!
    - sliken 4y ago
      Heh, well making your product worse for more revenue seems pretty warped, and increases the risk of lost market share. Even more warped is having 2 of your engineers join the Debian technical committee and use the bylaws to force a vote before anyone figures out exactly what SystemD is.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - yawaramin 4y ago
        Were they coerced to vote for it? Why did they vote for it if they didn't know what it is? Honestly it's hilarious how systemd haters see conspiracies everywhere.
- a1369209993 4y ago
  - kaba0 4y ago
    That's an ultra dumb take. It is a fking trivial binary format with an open spec, which is not particularly complicated. Is linux also EEE? Because those ELF files are quite a bit more difficult to decypher...
    - traverseda 4y ago
      > Is linux also EEE? Oh yes, quite intentionally. See also "viral" licenses like the GPL.
pikrzyszto 4y ago
"tail /var/log/nginx.log" is now "journalctl -fu nginx" or "jouranlctl -eu nginx". Not that much of a difference, it really depends what you grow up with. We could argue "tail" is ugly because you never know if it's "tail /var/log/nginx.log" or "tail /var/log/nginx/nginx.log". A nice feature is that journald gives you flags like "--boot" to see logs only emitted during a specific boot, or "--since '5m ago'" which is not that straightforward to do with the approach you favor. (if there is a way to do it easily, please let me know!)
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  I personally find journalctl -fu $service very cathartic, because I'm almost always typing this command when $service isn't working.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I really need to alias `journalctl -fu` to something because it's always so tedious to type all that out over and over when I'm trying to debug something. Also, is there any autocomplete for systemd unit names? Typing `journalctl -fu amazon-cloudwatch-agent` over and over and over is so much more tedious--ideally it would be something closer to `jctl amaz<tab>`.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      I do get autocomplete for even that with bash (on nixos). Tried to have a look at my config, but I forgot what enables that, but it is a game changer.
    - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
      There is autocompletion. It works by default on Pop OS and Debian. (You may need to install bash-completion and/or dbus if your install is very minimal.)
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Knowing the path to the log file isn't more complex than knowing the name of the systemd unit, but not needing to know the right set of flags to pass because the sane behavior is the default is _really_ nice. That said, I didn't know about `--boot` or `--since`, so maybe I'll hate journalctl a little less (also, I've only ever used systemd-based systems, so I don't think "it's what you grew up on" applies, at least in my case).
Hikikomori 4y ago
Can still do that?
rlpb 4y ago
Your gripes all seem to boil down to your unfamiliarity, rather than anything specific that stands on its own as a problem. Unfamiliarity is understandable, but if that were enough to avoid progress, we wouldn't never have progress. > ctrl+C because it's taking too long Try --since=today. Then you end up in less, and that should be more familiar, including for search. This is then the equivalent of traditional daily rotating log files, with no other knowledge needed apart from --since and --unit (the latter is noted in "systemctl status" output as a reminder). Then every further feature is an optional bonus.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  As other commenters have mentioned, the unfamiliarity is a symptom of the time I spend using less,grep,sed,sort.. etc on a daily basis. If I could use those journalctl flags for everything I do relating to files on the system then I would be very familiar with them. It's the same rule I use when purchasing kitchen equipment - often it's better to have a single multi-purpose tool than a bunch of specific implements. Otherwise you end up with a drawer full of strawberry-stem removers, pizza slicers, corn-cob peelers, avocado-slicers, etc. This is to say nothing of the binary format issues that others have discussed.
jeroenhd 4y ago
Maybe nginx logs at usable, but my experience with reading logs in the old way was often "grep servicename syslog" and prayer that the tool didn't have its own magical log file somewhere else. The backing store may be controversial, but the journalctl command line is much more pleasant. "I want to see log messages from the end of the last boot when the system crashed" is no longer a Rube Goldberg command line involving less/sed/grep/cut/awk and manual scrolling, it's supported out of the box with no configuration necessary.

traverseda 4y ago

One of my earliest experiences with systemd's binary log files was on an embedded system I had ~~chrooted~~ systemd-nspawned into, and every time I tried to get the log output it would segfault (some issue with qemu-static probably). Very frustrating experience. Really feels like "Embrace, extend, extinguish" but the thing they're extinguishing is unix-as-a-programming-environemnt.

sliken 4y ago
Or a Redhat plan to generate more consulting/support income. Ever wonder why Oracle products were so hard to install/maintain?
- egberts1 4y ago
  It's the IBM way. Everything be in 4-digit or 5-digit error code. Need to RTFM for such codes. Or worse, StackOverflow them.
- yawaramin 4y ago
  Yes, a for-profit corporation has the nefarious plan to... checks notes ...try to earn more revenues. We certainly can't stand for that!
  - sliken 4y ago
    Heh, well making your product worse for more revenue seems pretty warped, and increases the risk of lost market share. Even more warped is having 2 of your engineers join the Debian technical committee and use the bylaws to force a vote before anyone figures out exactly what SystemD is.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - yawaramin 4y ago
      Were they coerced to vote for it? Why did they vote for it if they didn't know what it is? Honestly it's hilarious how systemd haters see conspiracies everywhere.
a1369209993 4y ago
- kaba0 4y ago
  That's an ultra dumb take. It is a fking trivial binary format with an open spec, which is not particularly complicated. Is linux also EEE? Because those ELF files are quite a bit more difficult to decypher...
  - traverseda 4y ago
    > Is linux also EEE? Oh yes, quite intentionally. See also "viral" licenses like the GPL.

pikrzyszto 4y ago

"tail /var/log/nginx.log" is now "journalctl -fu nginx" or "jouranlctl -eu nginx". Not that much of a difference, it really depends what you grow up with. We could argue "tail" is ugly because you never know if it's "tail /var/log/nginx.log" or "tail /var/log/nginx/nginx.log". A nice feature is that journald gives you flags like "--boot" to see logs only emitted during a specific boot, or "--since '5m ago'" which is not that straightforward to do with the approach you favor. (if there is a way to do it easily, please let me know!)

candiddevmike 4y ago
I personally find journalctl -fu $service very cathartic, because I'm almost always typing this command when $service isn't working.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I really need to alias `journalctl -fu` to something because it's always so tedious to type all that out over and over when I'm trying to debug something. Also, is there any autocomplete for systemd unit names? Typing `journalctl -fu amazon-cloudwatch-agent` over and over and over is so much more tedious--ideally it would be something closer to `jctl amaz<tab>`.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    I do get autocomplete for even that with bash (on nixos). Tried to have a look at my config, but I forgot what enables that, but it is a game changer.
  - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
    There is autocompletion. It works by default on Pop OS and Debian. (You may need to install bash-completion and/or dbus if your install is very minimal.)
throwaway894345 4y ago
Knowing the path to the log file isn't more complex than knowing the name of the systemd unit, but not needing to know the right set of flags to pass because the sane behavior is the default is _really_ nice. That said, I didn't know about `--boot` or `--since`, so maybe I'll hate journalctl a little less (also, I've only ever used systemd-based systems, so I don't think "it's what you grew up on" applies, at least in my case).

Hikikomori 4y ago

Can still do that?

rlpb 4y ago

Your gripes all seem to boil down to your unfamiliarity, rather than anything specific that stands on its own as a problem. Unfamiliarity is understandable, but if that were enough to avoid progress, we wouldn't never have progress. > ctrl+C because it's taking too long Try --since=today. Then you end up in less, and that should be more familiar, including for search. This is then the equivalent of traditional daily rotating log files, with no other knowledge needed apart from --since and --unit (the latter is noted in "systemctl status" output as a reminder). Then every further feature is an optional bonus.

ghostpepper 4y ago
As other commenters have mentioned, the unfamiliarity is a symptom of the time I spend using less,grep,sed,sort.. etc on a daily basis. If I could use those journalctl flags for everything I do relating to files on the system then I would be very familiar with them. It's the same rule I use when purchasing kitchen equipment - often it's better to have a single multi-purpose tool than a bunch of specific implements. Otherwise you end up with a drawer full of strawberry-stem removers, pizza slicers, corn-cob peelers, avocado-slicers, etc. This is to say nothing of the binary format issues that others have discussed.

jeroenhd 4y ago

Maybe nginx logs at usable, but my experience with reading logs in the old way was often "grep servicename syslog" and prayer that the tool didn't have its own magical log file somewhere else. The backing store may be controversial, but the journalctl command line is much more pleasant. "I want to see log messages from the end of the last boot when the system crashed" is no longer a Rube Goldberg command line involving less/sed/grep/cut/awk and manual scrolling, it's supported out of the box with no configuration necessary.