6 ms·

German states and federal government agreed on nationwide 49€ ticket coming 2023

72 points by Archelaos 4y ago

notatoad 4y ago
5th paragraph before they clarify it's for buses and trains. i kinda assumed that's what they were talking about, but it seems like something that probably should have been a bit closer to the top
- nixass 4y ago
  + trams + underground. Basically all means of transport available with 9 Eur ticket last summer
  - rdsubhas 4y ago
    + passenger ferries
- 6510 4y ago
  in the title as its huge
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  To clarify, we had the 9 euro ticket recently which was the same deal but for a limited period. So everyone living in Germany would understand what was meant by 49 euro ticket. And this article is mostly meant for the German population of HN which is rather large.
- yewenjie 4y ago
  I kept reading first few paragraph and it felt like autogenerated AI writing from a few years ago. Gave up and came to the comment section.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  Yeah I wondered if it was concert tickets for a moment, or speeding tickets
- rerx 4y ago
  This is breaking news. Give it a few more minutes and better articles will appear that don't assume a readership informed about German day-to-day business.
wongarsu 4y ago
49 per month that is, for all buses and local/commuter trains (and the slower long-distance-ish trains). The ticket is huge in terms of lowering the barriers of entry and simplifying the system. So far monthly passes are specific to each region, and then you have to figure out how many fare zones you will be crossing etc. With this you pay 49€ per month and can just jump in any bus or train without thinking about it (as long as you remember which kinds of trains are excluded and need proper tickets).
- rusticpenn 4y ago
  My local city ticket was 80€ per month. This is huge.
  - Aromasin 4y ago
    My old monthly ticket from Reading to London, just under 60km, was £574.50/month. Rule Britannia...
- trgn 4y ago
  It's just crazy cheap. Really amazing and ambitious.
  - mschild 4y ago
    Still too high imho. 49 Euros is not completely covered under the unemployment allowence by the state. The max for that is 45 Euros. Additionally, making the price 29 Euros would mean double the expected ticket sales and ultimately more money that could be used for upkeep and expansion.
    - nkmnz 4y ago
      It's up to the Länder to pay more to lower the price. It's their constitutional right (and duty) to do so, if they see fit. If 16 Länder agree to not spend more on it... maybe they have good arguments as well?
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
strtby 4y ago
I would make public transport free. Metro, train, bus It's already publicly funded for most of the budget. You can scrap ticketing systems/gates and use the conductors somewhere else in the economy. It won't happen, not because it's more expensive, but because governments like to keep track off movements.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  > but because governments like to keep track off movements. You can buy any ticket in cash at the automatic ticket machines. I don't think it's that, the government has enough cameras to track you in general, they don't really need ticket records.
  - mschild 4y ago
    Yeah, this would be about the most inefficient way to do it. You barely ever have to show your ticket. There are no gates that track where you are. You just walk into the train and go with it. Especially considering that tracking the general population by phone is much easier and efficient.
  - weinzierl 4y ago
    As TillE wrote, we don't even have gates in Germany. Passenger volume is measured by manual counting - for real. It's a typical job for students and for the retired. They count how many people are getting on and off the trains at every station. During the ride they ask volunteers about their point of departure, destination and type of ticket.
- TillE 4y ago
  Germany doesn't do gates, it's just random inspections. But yes there's quite a lot of overhead in the ticket system, it would certainly be more efficient to just fund everything from general taxes.
- rerx 4y ago
  The grim truth is that, in many regions of Germany, public transport is heavily overloaded as it is. So some discouragement is priced in.
dzonga 4y ago
while the other big european country - uk has massive train strikes, tickets prices are already expensive.
mschild 4y ago
This is a massive change and a huge improvement for a lot of people. This isn't directly because of the price, although there is some reduction in price to the current system, but because it simplifies the ridiculous pricing zones. For example, Berlin is split up into 3 different pricing zones: A, B, C. If you need a monthly subscription for zones A and B you'd pay 63 Euros per month. If you live just across the state border from Berlin in Brandenburg, which still is technically one continuous urban area, you're classified in Zone C and now need to pay 83 Euros. This is still somewhat simple compared to some other combination. You can see all the zones on Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_transport_associations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_transport_ass...
- rco8786 4y ago
  I got nailed by this in Munich as a tourist. It was so confusing to figure out which zone (and subzone?) my ticket was actually valid for and I ended up having to pay a fine. I am reasonably well traveled and not a stranger to public transit but that one got me.
  - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
    Yes, Munich has (had?) 6 zones. It's quite confusing. Surprised you had to pay as a tourist -- the usual trick we did as expats is pretend we don't speak German. Usually got away with a 5 euro fine.
    - someweirdperson 4y ago
      Using public transport without the correct ticket is a criminal offense (Straftat) in Germany. It's not just a matter of paying an increased fee (that's the 5 Euro) when caught. The current minister of justice is considering to analyze if the law can be changed to make it just a misdemeanor (Ordnungwidrigkeit).
      - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
        In practical terms however, it is very much just a matter of paying the fine and the ticket controllers do let tourists go sometimes (not the ones which do it as a prison work, but others do). Yes, there's stories about people going to prison for it, but usually they got caught a million times and refused to pay. I know a person like that.
throwaway4good 4y ago
Is this only RE-trains and trams not IC/ICE-trains, just like the 9 euro ticket? If so long distance travel is not really practical.
- ido 4y ago
  It is. I believe it's meant to encourage commuting by train, not long range travel. It's for example now significantly cheaper that the normal Berlin yearly ticket was while also increasing coverage.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    IMO, the most effective way to make people commute by public transport is to make parking difficult and expensive. People spend hundreds a month commuting by car so the issue is not the price of train tickets, it's that people prefer to drive as it's more comfortable and convenient. But now, if you cannot park or it will cost you a fortune you'll think 'fuck it, I will take the train'.
    - ckdot 4y ago
      In Germany it’s not unusual that you need about 3x the time by train instead if you go by car. You can’t force those who have to commute to go by train. You have to force employers to provide (maybe not only provide, but enforce) remote work options for all the jobs where it’s simply not necessary to be on-site.
      - mytailorisrich 4y ago
        Right, public transport is also usually slower. My point is that cutting ticket prices isn't going to make people suddenly use public transport because it's not an affordability issue.
        iggldiggl 4y ago
        Unfortunately cutting ticket prices is the quick political win, so instead of actually better public transport we'll only get it cheaper…
slt2021 4y ago
This will be good for tourists as well, much simpler system to explore Germany
nier 4y ago
It is for trains as long as the train is not an IC (Inter City) or ICE (Inter City Express). That leaves you with only slower regional trains, trams, and subways. If you were to use the €49 ticket for a train ride from Munich to Berlin (around 360 miles) it would take you 5 different trains and close to 9 hours to get there. With the ICE: No transfers and the journey is cut down to 4 hours. Price: €168 without discounts. If you book weeks in advance you can get a ticket for around €50. Each metropolitan area has its own company running public transportation. This €49 ticket, like the €9 ticket that was tested for 3 months in the summer of 2022, is valid in almost every city and town in Germany. No matter who operates the trains or buses. For comparison, a ticket that allows you to travel all of the fare zones in and around Nuremberg, Bavaria is €245 per month. That’s an area of about 6100 square miles. All prices include the reduced sales tax, which is currently at 7%.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Great deal for people who have plenty of free time but little money, like kids, students, retirees, or unemployed.
ckdot 4y ago
I‘m German. The truth is, people who right now use a car won‘t switch to public transport because of that ticket. There’s already studies about that for the 9€ ticket we previously had. So it probably won’t make a difference in co2 outcome. Also, those who benefit from that ticket, they usually still complain as they like to have back the 9€ ticket. So 49€ is still too expensive for them. Also, you need to keep in mind who is actually paying for that. This is the middle class. If you are part of the middle class in Germany chances are high that you pay more than 70% taxes & charges overall (payroll/income, trade tax, 19 % vat, electricity tax, health insurance, pension fund where it’s likely you’ll never see the money again… and so much more, I don’t even start writing about the Handelskammer). So those who work have to pay a lot to keep the system running. And those who don’t, they get - compared to other countries - much help, but they still complain. There’s something in a human that makes him unhappy which money alone can’t fix. I’m not against the 49 € ticket. I like the idea. The current government is even with all it flaws still much better than the previous one. But all those who just see the bright side of the ticket should think about the downsides, too.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  My understanding is that this new ticker greatly simplifies a currently very complicated ticketing system. But, I don't think that many people need a national ticket on a daily basis, and indeed people won't switch because of the very cheap price. Cars are vastly more expensive and people still prefer to drive. There is a lot of politics involved, I think. Some think that public transport should be very cheap or even free (which of course actually means it's paid via general taxation) but really I don't think it makes a difference on behaviour because people can afford to pay even hundreds of euros a month if they have to.
  - ckdot 4y ago
    Yes it’s making the ticket system much simpler. But I don’t think this was top priority. For the 9€ ticket the rule seemed to be like „you can use it everywhere locally and additionally nationally for all trains which are not ICs or ICEs“ but in reality there were still some routes where you were not allowed to use it even though the train you use is an RE. Afaik you could not know except you were looking into the terms and agreements of the Deutsche Bahn. There are two reasons why the ticket system was (and probably partially will still be) so complicated: first we have a lot of transportation companies. Each city/region has their own. And we have the Deutsche Bahn - which responsible for all the national tracks and trains. They all have their own ideas of pricing and they never appeared to be willing to work together. Also, you‘d need a good electronic system to cover all the data from all these companies to work with them but this requires some degree of digitalization which Germanys is not capable of. It’s a mess :(
quonn 4y ago
This is great news. Meanwhile, climate activist glue themselves to airports with just two demands and one of them is that the ticket should cost only 9 Euros. (Obviously I disagree that this is a reasonable demand.)

72 points by Archelaos 4y ago

5th paragraph before they clarify it's for buses and trains. i kinda assumed that's what they were talking about, but it seems like something that probably should have been a bit closer to the top

nixass 4y ago
+ trams + underground. Basically all means of transport available with 9 Eur ticket last summer
- rdsubhas 4y ago
  + passenger ferries
6510 4y ago
in the title as its huge
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
To clarify, we had the 9 euro ticket recently which was the same deal but for a limited period. So everyone living in Germany would understand what was meant by 49 euro ticket. And this article is mostly meant for the German population of HN which is rather large.
yewenjie 4y ago
I kept reading first few paragraph and it felt like autogenerated AI writing from a few years ago. Gave up and came to the comment section.
ghostpepper 4y ago
Yeah I wondered if it was concert tickets for a moment, or speeding tickets
rerx 4y ago
This is breaking news. Give it a few more minutes and better articles will appear that don't assume a readership informed about German day-to-day business.

wongarsu 4y ago

49 per month that is, for all buses and local/commuter trains (and the slower long-distance-ish trains). The ticket is huge in terms of lowering the barriers of entry and simplifying the system. So far monthly passes are specific to each region, and then you have to figure out how many fare zones you will be crossing etc. With this you pay 49€ per month and can just jump in any bus or train without thinking about it (as long as you remember which kinds of trains are excluded and need proper tickets).

rusticpenn 4y ago
My local city ticket was 80€ per month. This is huge.
- Aromasin 4y ago
  My old monthly ticket from Reading to London, just under 60km, was £574.50/month. Rule Britannia...
trgn 4y ago
It's just crazy cheap. Really amazing and ambitious.
- mschild 4y ago
  Still too high imho. 49 Euros is not completely covered under the unemployment allowence by the state. The max for that is 45 Euros. Additionally, making the price 29 Euros would mean double the expected ticket sales and ultimately more money that could be used for upkeep and expansion.
  - nkmnz 4y ago
    It's up to the Länder to pay more to lower the price. It's their constitutional right (and duty) to do so, if they see fit. If 16 Länder agree to not spend more on it... maybe they have good arguments as well?
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

strtby 4y ago

I would make public transport free. Metro, train, bus It's already publicly funded for most of the budget. You can scrap ticketing systems/gates and use the conductors somewhere else in the economy. It won't happen, not because it's more expensive, but because governments like to keep track off movements.

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
> but because governments like to keep track off movements. You can buy any ticket in cash at the automatic ticket machines. I don't think it's that, the government has enough cameras to track you in general, they don't really need ticket records.
- mschild 4y ago
  Yeah, this would be about the most inefficient way to do it. You barely ever have to show your ticket. There are no gates that track where you are. You just walk into the train and go with it. Especially considering that tracking the general population by phone is much easier and efficient.
- weinzierl 4y ago
  As TillE wrote, we don't even have gates in Germany. Passenger volume is measured by manual counting - for real. It's a typical job for students and for the retired. They count how many people are getting on and off the trains at every station. During the ride they ask volunteers about their point of departure, destination and type of ticket.
TillE 4y ago
Germany doesn't do gates, it's just random inspections. But yes there's quite a lot of overhead in the ticket system, it would certainly be more efficient to just fund everything from general taxes.
rerx 4y ago
The grim truth is that, in many regions of Germany, public transport is heavily overloaded as it is. So some discouragement is priced in.

dzonga 4y ago

while the other big european country - uk has massive train strikes, tickets prices are already expensive.

mschild 4y ago

This is a massive change and a huge improvement for a lot of people. This isn't directly because of the price, although there is some reduction in price to the current system, but because it simplifies the ridiculous pricing zones. For example, Berlin is split up into 3 different pricing zones: A, B, C. If you need a monthly subscription for zones A and B you'd pay 63 Euros per month. If you live just across the state border from Berlin in Brandenburg, which still is technically one continuous urban area, you're classified in Zone C and now need to pay 83 Euros. This is still somewhat simple compared to some other combination. You can see all the zones on Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_transport_associations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_transport_ass...

rco8786 4y ago
I got nailed by this in Munich as a tourist. It was so confusing to figure out which zone (and subzone?) my ticket was actually valid for and I ended up having to pay a fine. I am reasonably well traveled and not a stranger to public transit but that one got me.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  Yes, Munich has (had?) 6 zones. It's quite confusing. Surprised you had to pay as a tourist -- the usual trick we did as expats is pretend we don't speak German. Usually got away with a 5 euro fine.
  - someweirdperson 4y ago
    Using public transport without the correct ticket is a criminal offense (Straftat) in Germany. It's not just a matter of paying an increased fee (that's the 5 Euro) when caught. The current minister of justice is considering to analyze if the law can be changed to make it just a misdemeanor (Ordnungwidrigkeit).
    - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
      In practical terms however, it is very much just a matter of paying the fine and the ticket controllers do let tourists go sometimes (not the ones which do it as a prison work, but others do). Yes, there's stories about people going to prison for it, but usually they got caught a million times and refused to pay. I know a person like that.

throwaway4good 4y ago

Is this only RE-trains and trams not IC/ICE-trains, just like the 9 euro ticket? If so long distance travel is not really practical.

ido 4y ago
It is. I believe it's meant to encourage commuting by train, not long range travel. It's for example now significantly cheaper that the normal Berlin yearly ticket was while also increasing coverage.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  IMO, the most effective way to make people commute by public transport is to make parking difficult and expensive. People spend hundreds a month commuting by car so the issue is not the price of train tickets, it's that people prefer to drive as it's more comfortable and convenient. But now, if you cannot park or it will cost you a fortune you'll think 'fuck it, I will take the train'.
  - ckdot 4y ago
    In Germany it’s not unusual that you need about 3x the time by train instead if you go by car. You can’t force those who have to commute to go by train. You have to force employers to provide (maybe not only provide, but enforce) remote work options for all the jobs where it’s simply not necessary to be on-site.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Right, public transport is also usually slower. My point is that cutting ticket prices isn't going to make people suddenly use public transport because it's not an affordability issue.
      - iggldiggl 4y ago
        Unfortunately cutting ticket prices is the quick political win, so instead of actually better public transport we'll only get it cheaper…

slt2021 4y ago

This will be good for tourists as well, much simpler system to explore Germany

nier 4y ago

It is for trains as long as the train is not an IC (Inter City) or ICE (Inter City Express). That leaves you with only slower regional trains, trams, and subways. If you were to use the €49 ticket for a train ride from Munich to Berlin (around 360 miles) it would take you 5 different trains and close to 9 hours to get there. With the ICE: No transfers and the journey is cut down to 4 hours. Price: €168 without discounts. If you book weeks in advance you can get a ticket for around €50. Each metropolitan area has its own company running public transportation. This €49 ticket, like the €9 ticket that was tested for 3 months in the summer of 2022, is valid in almost every city and town in Germany. No matter who operates the trains or buses. For comparison, a ticket that allows you to travel all of the fare zones in and around Nuremberg, Bavaria is €245 per month. That’s an area of about 6100 square miles. All prices include the reduced sales tax, which is currently at 7%.

xyzzyz 4y ago
Great deal for people who have plenty of free time but little money, like kids, students, retirees, or unemployed.

ckdot 4y ago

I‘m German. The truth is, people who right now use a car won‘t switch to public transport because of that ticket. There’s already studies about that for the 9€ ticket we previously had. So it probably won’t make a difference in co2 outcome. Also, those who benefit from that ticket, they usually still complain as they like to have back the 9€ ticket. So 49€ is still too expensive for them. Also, you need to keep in mind who is actually paying for that. This is the middle class. If you are part of the middle class in Germany chances are high that you pay more than 70% taxes & charges overall (payroll/income, trade tax, 19 % vat, electricity tax, health insurance, pension fund where it’s likely you’ll never see the money again… and so much more, I don’t even start writing about the Handelskammer). So those who work have to pay a lot to keep the system running. And those who don’t, they get - compared to other countries - much help, but they still complain. There’s something in a human that makes him unhappy which money alone can’t fix. I’m not against the 49 € ticket. I like the idea. The current government is even with all it flaws still much better than the previous one. But all those who just see the bright side of the ticket should think about the downsides, too.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
My understanding is that this new ticker greatly simplifies a currently very complicated ticketing system. But, I don't think that many people need a national ticket on a daily basis, and indeed people won't switch because of the very cheap price. Cars are vastly more expensive and people still prefer to drive. There is a lot of politics involved, I think. Some think that public transport should be very cheap or even free (which of course actually means it's paid via general taxation) but really I don't think it makes a difference on behaviour because people can afford to pay even hundreds of euros a month if they have to.
- ckdot 4y ago
  Yes it’s making the ticket system much simpler. But I don’t think this was top priority. For the 9€ ticket the rule seemed to be like „you can use it everywhere locally and additionally nationally for all trains which are not ICs or ICEs“ but in reality there were still some routes where you were not allowed to use it even though the train you use is an RE. Afaik you could not know except you were looking into the terms and agreements of the Deutsche Bahn. There are two reasons why the ticket system was (and probably partially will still be) so complicated: first we have a lot of transportation companies. Each city/region has their own. And we have the Deutsche Bahn - which responsible for all the national tracks and trains. They all have their own ideas of pricing and they never appeared to be willing to work together. Also, you‘d need a good electronic system to cover all the data from all these companies to work with them but this requires some degree of digitalization which Germanys is not capable of. It’s a mess :(

quonn 4y ago

This is great news. Meanwhile, climate activist glue themselves to airports with just two demands and one of them is that the ticket should cost only 9 Euros. (Obviously I disagree that this is a reasonable demand.)