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This logic (we have billions in real estate investments that somehow we need to use. So let's use them by bringing people back to the office) is an example of c

by dh2022 4y ago

This logic (we have billions in real estate investments that somehow we need to use. So let's use them by bringing people back to the office) is an example of cost sunk fallacy. The 3 multinationals I worked for are aware of this fallacy. Amazon is another example of company writing-off hundreds of millions right away (FirePhone). All this preamble just to point that there are other things beyond just "we must fill these offices". Probably productivity decreased? BTW - my current employer (big tech company) also wants to bring everyone back into the office, even though it increased the headcount during the pandemic and there was no campus expansion for 1 and half year due to COVID lockdowns and there is no space for everyone.

ghaff 4y ago
It's worse than that. It presumably costs more to operate a building than to mothball it and at least try to sublease it. If there's really no value in filling the building up with people, it's a bit like deciding to drive your car around aimlessly because "I own it so I should use it."
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  And workers have no choice in the current setup, hence the need for labor regulation to allow for remote work if the work can legitimately be performed remotely. Otherwise, "make my assets worth it plebs." (half joking) The UK has a law where workers have the right to request flexible work arrangements, for example: https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  I'm currently on paternity leave, and I do need to drive my car every so often to keep the 12V battery charged up...
  - runamok 4y ago
    Buy a trickle charger, they cost under $20. :-) That being said, leaving a car sitting for many months is not great without fuel stabilizer IIRC.
hyperpape 4y ago
It's not guaranteed that it's a sunk cost fallacy. I'm going to make up some dumb numbers: suppose people are 5% more productive in the office, but the office has an amortized cost of 10% total compensation. You shouldn't open an office. But say you've purchased an office outright, and maintenance is now only 2% of the cost of total compensation (8% of cost was paid up front). In that case, you would want people in the office. In the real world, this is more complicated, because you also add in employee preferences as a reason for or against an office, you can't neatly measure productivity, you probably didn't buy the office in cash, you leased it, or borrowed money to buy it...).
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  All the evidence points to workers (especially programmers) being more productive when working from home, not less.
  - medvezhenok 4y ago
    Short term yes, long term unclear. I’ve personally experienced something that could be cranked out in a multi day white boarding session stretch out for months of on/off meetings. It’s harder to collaborate remotely.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      At that point, have everyone get together for an offsite/onsite.
      - medvezhenok 4y ago
        That was the plan but unfortunately there was a company-wide travel freeze
        ghaff 4y ago
        That is an issue right now at a lot of places. Distributed teams are pretty much stuck with video calls. But you deal with it. Most people aren't going to move cities at their own expense to avoid video calls.
KronisLV 4y ago
> BTW - my current employer (big tech company) also wants to bring everyone back into the office, even though it increased the headcount during the pandemic and there was no campus expansion for 1 and half year due to COVID lockdowns and there is no space for everyone. My current company hasn't made such a demand, but I've also heard that in others in this country about 20% of people actually prefer to work in person daily, everyone else seems to work remotely a lot of the time. Now, I'm probably under a certain sampling bias here, but the few times I recently went into the office, it seemed comparatively empty, unless a team had decided to meet up in person for whatever reason. I guess not everyone enjoys the commute, especially in pretty cold weather (or just thrives while working remotely for a plethora of reasons).
- WWLink 4y ago
  > My current company hasn't made such a demand, but I've also heard that in others in this country about 20% of people actually prefer to work in person daily, everyone else seems to work remotely. That 20% probably also expects/demands everyone else show up, because they prefer everyone else to be there, too! :)
  - mullingitover 4y ago
    If there's an equal distribution of talent/productivity among the remote-demanding group and the on prem-demanding group, and only 20% demand on prem, the smart move is to cut the smaller group loose. They offer a smaller talent pool and most of the highest-performing talent will be in the remote group.
  - sundaeofshock 4y ago
    You got a citation for that? I’m a part of the 20% who enjoys going into the office a few times a week. There are three other folks who show up regularly; the rest rarely — if ever — make an appearance. I’m fine with this arrangement and I don’t see a need to force everyone else back in. With the the exception of misguided upper management, I suspect most people take a more nuanced view of remote work.

by dh2022 4y ago

ghaff 4y ago

It's worse than that. It presumably costs more to operate a building than to mothball it and at least try to sublease it. If there's really no value in filling the building up with people, it's a bit like deciding to drive your car around aimlessly because "I own it so I should use it."

toomuchtodo 4y ago
And workers have no choice in the current setup, hence the need for labor regulation to allow for remote work if the work can legitimately be performed remotely. Otherwise, "make my assets worth it plebs." (half joking) The UK has a law where workers have the right to request flexible work arrangements, for example: https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working
sgtnoodle 4y ago
I'm currently on paternity leave, and I do need to drive my car every so often to keep the 12V battery charged up...
- runamok 4y ago
  Buy a trickle charger, they cost under $20. :-) That being said, leaving a car sitting for many months is not great without fuel stabilizer IIRC.

hyperpape 4y ago

It's not guaranteed that it's a sunk cost fallacy. I'm going to make up some dumb numbers: suppose people are 5% more productive in the office, but the office has an amortized cost of 10% total compensation. You shouldn't open an office. But say you've purchased an office outright, and maintenance is now only 2% of the cost of total compensation (8% of cost was paid up front). In that case, you would want people in the office. In the real world, this is more complicated, because you also add in employee preferences as a reason for or against an office, you can't neatly measure productivity, you probably didn't buy the office in cash, you leased it, or borrowed money to buy it...).

marcus_holmes 4y ago
All the evidence points to workers (especially programmers) being more productive when working from home, not less.
- medvezhenok 4y ago
  Short term yes, long term unclear. I’ve personally experienced something that could be cranked out in a multi day white boarding session stretch out for months of on/off meetings. It’s harder to collaborate remotely.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    At that point, have everyone get together for an offsite/onsite.
    - medvezhenok 4y ago
      That was the plan but unfortunately there was a company-wide travel freeze
      - ghaff 4y ago
        That is an issue right now at a lot of places. Distributed teams are pretty much stuck with video calls. But you deal with it. Most people aren't going to move cities at their own expense to avoid video calls.

KronisLV 4y ago

> BTW - my current employer (big tech company) also wants to bring everyone back into the office, even though it increased the headcount during the pandemic and there was no campus expansion for 1 and half year due to COVID lockdowns and there is no space for everyone. My current company hasn't made such a demand, but I've also heard that in others in this country about 20% of people actually prefer to work in person daily, everyone else seems to work remotely a lot of the time. Now, I'm probably under a certain sampling bias here, but the few times I recently went into the office, it seemed comparatively empty, unless a team had decided to meet up in person for whatever reason. I guess not everyone enjoys the commute, especially in pretty cold weather (or just thrives while working remotely for a plethora of reasons).

WWLink 4y ago
> My current company hasn't made such a demand, but I've also heard that in others in this country about 20% of people actually prefer to work in person daily, everyone else seems to work remotely. That 20% probably also expects/demands everyone else show up, because they prefer everyone else to be there, too! :)
- mullingitover 4y ago
  If there's an equal distribution of talent/productivity among the remote-demanding group and the on prem-demanding group, and only 20% demand on prem, the smart move is to cut the smaller group loose. They offer a smaller talent pool and most of the highest-performing talent will be in the remote group.
- sundaeofshock 4y ago
  You got a citation for that? I’m a part of the 20% who enjoys going into the office a few times a week. There are three other folks who show up regularly; the rest rarely — if ever — make an appearance. I’m fine with this arrangement and I don’t see a need to force everyone else back in. With the the exception of misguided upper management, I suspect most people take a more nuanced view of remote work.