7 ms·

This is a bold claim made on a very shaky set of data. Most companies aren't going to explicitly post jobs for remote, just because a lot of talent management p

by mike_d 4y ago

This is a bold claim made on a very shaky set of data. Most companies aren't going to explicitly post jobs for remote, just because a lot of talent management platforms don't really support it well. I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dollars in real estate liabilities that are effectively useless. As an aside, I wonder if there is some clever way to get a tax write off for office space that went unused due to a global pandemic - or writing off an office entirely as a loss.

mullingitover 4y ago
> Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dollars in real estate liabilities that are effectively useless. If employers able to get productive work out of employees who aren't using that real estate, the real problem is getting the real estate costs off their books, not getting the butts back in seats in some arbitrary office location. This is a problem for landlords, not employers.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  What about employers that are also landlords because they bought their real estate to become more efficient?
  - SQueeeeeL 4y ago
    I have literally never worked for a non-billion dollar business who owns their real estate and has remote work. Businesses just kinda expect to rent. But also once the national real estate bubble collapses, a lot of people are going to be left "holding the bag"
  - mullingitover 4y ago
    Is their real estate making them more competitive now? If not, they should offload that dead weight right away, before their competition does.
  - shultays 4y ago
    They should try to rent it to other suckers
GoldenRacer 4y ago
> I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Yep. I started a job early this year and the job posting said it was in person but I'm the only one on my team in my state. My manager just didn't have company approval to post a remote position but the fact that there's an office near me gave her the ability to hire me. Now that I'm employed, it's a fairly easy process to switch to remote if I want. I personally just use the office space like a wework so haven't applied to be remote but it's definitely an option.
dh2022 4y ago
This logic (we have billions in real estate investments that somehow we need to use. So let's use them by bringing people back to the office) is an example of cost sunk fallacy. The 3 multinationals I worked for are aware of this fallacy. Amazon is another example of company writing-off hundreds of millions right away (FirePhone). All this preamble just to point that there are other things beyond just "we must fill these offices". Probably productivity decreased? BTW - my current employer (big tech company) also wants to bring everyone back into the office, even though it increased the headcount during the pandemic and there was no campus expansion for 1 and half year due to COVID lockdowns and there is no space for everyone.
- ghaff 4y ago
  It's worse than that. It presumably costs more to operate a building than to mothball it and at least try to sublease it. If there's really no value in filling the building up with people, it's a bit like deciding to drive your car around aimlessly because "I own it so I should use it."
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    And workers have no choice in the current setup, hence the need for labor regulation to allow for remote work if the work can legitimately be performed remotely. Otherwise, "make my assets worth it plebs." (half joking) The UK has a law where workers have the right to request flexible work arrangements, for example: https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    I'm currently on paternity leave, and I do need to drive my car every so often to keep the 12V battery charged up...
    - runamok 4y ago
      Buy a trickle charger, they cost under $20. :-) That being said, leaving a car sitting for many months is not great without fuel stabilizer IIRC.
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.
- mike_d 4y ago
  Sounds like a pretty toxic environment. Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. Consider the pre-pandemic prevalence of "phone booths" and one person conference rooms, so you can be in a meeting as the only local attendee. As far as the other location is considered, you are remote just with access to a bigger coffee maker.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. True, but it's possible that a company had nearly 100% co-located teams prior to COVID.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    The reality with a lot of teams at many large companies is that meetings of any size will involve people in different offices/fully remote/traveling/etc. Even if I and others nominally assigned to my local office all came in, I'm not sure I'd know a single person on a given day.
    - oregano 4y ago
      I work at a large company based in Seattle and this is exactly my experience. I go into the office maybe once every few weeks and maybe talk to one or two people from my org. We do coordinate to get together in the office every couple months which is kind of fun but not worth doing on a weekly basis as our team is already distributed across the country and world.
  - jayd16 4y ago
    Its toxic to not want to be on zoom or have to book a meeting room to talk? >no different than working with someone in another office Given the choice, they'd likely prefer someone local in this case as well.
alistairSH 4y ago
Or worse, a pattern I've seen is list a single job 3+ times - once for each office location and then again for remote.
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  Yeah it can be much easier to get it through some company internal processes like that and cancel the unneeded ones
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Yeah this, but a lot more than three. I’ve seen companies spam so hard it seems like they’re making a new post for every goddamn MSA in the US To cover the remote roles.
lambdasquirrel 4y ago
> Of course employers want people to come back. Yes, and now, let's define "employers." None of the engineers I know want to be back in the office, including a lot of folks whom I'd call a "manager." At best, we want to be there 1 or 2 days of the week, or month, or financial quarter. We always knew that we got the short end of the stick with office politics, with petty concerns like how well-dressed we were, or how tall we were, or what elitist culture people think we're from (or not). The pandemic really showed up how much we were the losers of that whole game because of how it shifted the dynamic so that it really did become about what you did for your team. And the thing about engineering, at least on the software side, is that it's still mostly ground-up and flat. Except for a company here or there that's actually led by a McKinsey consultant, the entire engineering org isn't interested in those games, and that includes our bosses.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > We always knew that we got the short end of the stick with office politics, with petty concerns like how well-dressed we were, or how tall we were, or what elitist culture people think we're from (or not). This. Imagine redoing The Office (either version), but with everyone working remotely. Barely any show left. It would consist only of "can you hear me?" and banter while waiting for everyone important to join and "hey, you're muted!"
pseudosudoer 4y ago
Anecdotally this is true for me. I was looking for a new role a few months ago, and a friend recommended me for a position that wasn't posted as remote, but made it clear I needed a remote position. The company is slowly shifting to allow fully remote workers, but hasn't started listed the positions as such. I've been the (hopefully successful) experiment for remote first hiring.
drewcoo 4y ago
> talent management platforms don't really support it well No wonder I never find many jobs in "Remote, OR!"

by mike_d 4y ago

mullingitover 4y ago

> Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dollars in real estate liabilities that are effectively useless. If employers able to get productive work out of employees who aren't using that real estate, the real problem is getting the real estate costs off their books, not getting the butts back in seats in some arbitrary office location. This is a problem for landlords, not employers.

birdyrooster 4y ago
What about employers that are also landlords because they bought their real estate to become more efficient?
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  I have literally never worked for a non-billion dollar business who owns their real estate and has remote work. Businesses just kinda expect to rent. But also once the national real estate bubble collapses, a lot of people are going to be left "holding the bag"
- mullingitover 4y ago
  Is their real estate making them more competitive now? If not, they should offload that dead weight right away, before their competition does.
- shultays 4y ago
  They should try to rent it to other suckers

GoldenRacer 4y ago

> I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Yep. I started a job early this year and the job posting said it was in person but I'm the only one on my team in my state. My manager just didn't have company approval to post a remote position but the fact that there's an office near me gave her the ability to hire me. Now that I'm employed, it's a fairly easy process to switch to remote if I want. I personally just use the office space like a wework so haven't applied to be remote but it's definitely an option.

dh2022 4y ago

This logic (we have billions in real estate investments that somehow we need to use. So let's use them by bringing people back to the office) is an example of cost sunk fallacy. The 3 multinationals I worked for are aware of this fallacy. Amazon is another example of company writing-off hundreds of millions right away (FirePhone). All this preamble just to point that there are other things beyond just "we must fill these offices". Probably productivity decreased? BTW - my current employer (big tech company) also wants to bring everyone back into the office, even though it increased the headcount during the pandemic and there was no campus expansion for 1 and half year due to COVID lockdowns and there is no space for everyone.

ghaff 4y ago
It's worse than that. It presumably costs more to operate a building than to mothball it and at least try to sublease it. If there's really no value in filling the building up with people, it's a bit like deciding to drive your car around aimlessly because "I own it so I should use it."
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  And workers have no choice in the current setup, hence the need for labor regulation to allow for remote work if the work can legitimately be performed remotely. Otherwise, "make my assets worth it plebs." (half joking) The UK has a law where workers have the right to request flexible work arrangements, for example: https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  I'm currently on paternity leave, and I do need to drive my car every so often to keep the 12V battery charged up...
  - runamok 4y ago
    Buy a trickle charger, they cost under $20. :-) That being said, leaving a car sitting for many months is not great without fuel stabilizer IIRC.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

mike_d 4y ago
Sounds like a pretty toxic environment. Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. Consider the pre-pandemic prevalence of "phone booths" and one person conference rooms, so you can be in a meeting as the only local attendee. As far as the other location is considered, you are remote just with access to a bigger coffee maker.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. True, but it's possible that a company had nearly 100% co-located teams prior to COVID.
- ghaff 4y ago
  The reality with a lot of teams at many large companies is that meetings of any size will involve people in different offices/fully remote/traveling/etc. Even if I and others nominally assigned to my local office all came in, I'm not sure I'd know a single person on a given day.
  - oregano 4y ago
    I work at a large company based in Seattle and this is exactly my experience. I go into the office maybe once every few weeks and maybe talk to one or two people from my org. We do coordinate to get together in the office every couple months which is kind of fun but not worth doing on a weekly basis as our team is already distributed across the country and world.
- jayd16 4y ago
  Its toxic to not want to be on zoom or have to book a meeting room to talk? >no different than working with someone in another office Given the choice, they'd likely prefer someone local in this case as well.

alistairSH 4y ago

Or worse, a pattern I've seen is list a single job 3+ times - once for each office location and then again for remote.

GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
Yeah it can be much easier to get it through some company internal processes like that and cancel the unneeded ones
the_only_law 4y ago
Yeah this, but a lot more than three. I’ve seen companies spam so hard it seems like they’re making a new post for every goddamn MSA in the US To cover the remote roles.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago

> Of course employers want people to come back. Yes, and now, let's define "employers." None of the engineers I know want to be back in the office, including a lot of folks whom I'd call a "manager." At best, we want to be there 1 or 2 days of the week, or month, or financial quarter. We always knew that we got the short end of the stick with office politics, with petty concerns like how well-dressed we were, or how tall we were, or what elitist culture people think we're from (or not). The pandemic really showed up how much we were the losers of that whole game because of how it shifted the dynamic so that it really did become about what you did for your team. And the thing about engineering, at least on the software side, is that it's still mostly ground-up and flat. Except for a company here or there that's actually led by a McKinsey consultant, the entire engineering org isn't interested in those games, and that includes our bosses.

drewcoo 4y ago
> We always knew that we got the short end of the stick with office politics, with petty concerns like how well-dressed we were, or how tall we were, or what elitist culture people think we're from (or not). This. Imagine redoing The Office (either version), but with everyone working remotely. Barely any show left. It would consist only of "can you hear me?" and banter while waiting for everyone important to join and "hey, you're muted!"

pseudosudoer 4y ago

Anecdotally this is true for me. I was looking for a new role a few months ago, and a friend recommended me for a position that wasn't posted as remote, but made it clear I needed a remote position. The company is slowly shifting to allow fully remote workers, but hasn't started listed the positions as such. I've been the (hopefully successful) experiment for remote first hiring.

drewcoo 4y ago

> talent management platforms don't really support it well No wonder I never find many jobs in "Remote, OR!"