5 ms·

Certainly there's a world where the author just knew, at some point in this process, "let me just give this giant stressor of a problem to a lawyer"—without los

by hoten 4y ago

Certainly there's a world where the author just knew, at some point in this process, "let me just give this giant stressor of a problem to a lawyer"—without losing whatever it means to "be an artist" or opportunities at growth he attributes to only occurring because he was awful at business.

jesterman 4y ago
There definitely was, as they mentioned in the article. They choose not to though, opting instead to just sit on it for a long time I guess? Hopefully they talked to a lawyer before releasing this though, and hopefully Microsoft doesn’t go after this guy.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > hopefully Microsoft doesn’t go after this guy Let’s not spread FUD, what would they go after for this guy and why?
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    It would not be too hard for Microsoft to argue that they did come to an agreement with the artist to transfer the rights in exchange for 20,000 euros, so they do now own the copyright to the End Poem and will sue for damages if the artist reneges on the deal and starts claiming it's public domain. I hope they don't, but they definitely could. It would be a PR nightmare though, and there's not all much to be gained either (how much money can you make with the poem if you can't mention Minecraft?), so with any luck that will stop them.
    - yownie 4y ago
      without a contract how do you propose they could do that?
      - rippercushions 4y ago
        For legal purposes, verbal agreements can be contracts, plus here there's an email trail that includes what very much looks like an acceptance of terms by the author.
  - xmprt 4y ago
    They had a long conversation over email and an exchange of payment for the right to at least use the poem. Whether you like it or not, that can count as a contract. It might be different in different jurisdictions but here's the US definition of a contract (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract): > The basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality.
    - yownie 4y ago
      that still doesnt get them perpetual rights nor ownership
    - tsak 4y ago
      Also the guy was living in Germany at the time so German laws apply which are different in regards to copyright.
    - krisoft 4y ago
      > They had a long conversation over email and an exchange of payment for the right to at least use the poem. I agree with that. This would be a real encumberance if the author were to decide he wants to sue someone. But that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing if Microsoft will sue the author. We are not discussing if Microsoft can sue him. The way this works anyone can sue anyone for pretty much any reason. So that is not an interesting question. So will they sue? The problem with these kind of informal contracts is that they are vague. Vague in practical terms means two things: 1 the outcome of any legal action is uncertain. 2 things take longer. This means that litigating things about them are expensive and uncertain. And here I repeat: the question here is not if they can use it, but if they paid for exclusive rights. So on one hand you have a huge mess of a litigation. On an other hand do you think microsoft is meaningfully and perceptibly harmed here? Do you think they will sell less game licences or ender dragon plushies because of this? I very much doubt it. Based on the balance of these two above do you feel it is in the best interest of Microsoft to sue the author?
      - 4y ago
a257 4y ago
Such a world sounds unappealing, if not naive and silly - why can't people be motivated by multiple reasons anyways? The author doesn't claim that they are a great at business in the first place.
jchw 4y ago
They do express regret for not simply doing this, so I guess you are right. But, the story wouldn't be very interesting if it had played out that way, so I guess here we are.
dcow 4y ago
Yeah I feel a twist in my gut for this guy. He is so frustrated it's incredible. He wrote 90% more than he needed to on this topic. The essay is long and rambling and I've missed any point he's trying to make... much like the words of his "End Poem". They are senseless and, ultimately, meaningless. They are not deep. They are incoherent. No wonder he's stuck in a narrative of his own creation. That's his life. If his emails with Carl were anything like his writing in this essay, then any reasonable person would have been at wits end trying to negotiate with this guy. He is right about one thing, though: the universe owes him nothing. All of his problems could have been solved if he just did the sensible normal thing any person would do and have a lawyer help him figure it out.
- antiterra 4y ago
  The end poem is fine. It doesn’t have particularly interesting rhythm, sound or structure in a ‘poetic’ way until the last bit. It has some weird stops, starts and repetition, but it’s coherent overall and has a functional enough core metaphor. Plus, the payoff is being told you matter, that you’re not alone. You know, the ‘we are all made of stars’ bit. It can be a powerful thought if you let it.
  - dcow 4y ago
    I realize I'm being critical. For me any message contained therein would have landed much more powerfully if it was communicated more gracefully. I, personally, believe that such stylized writing serves more to cover up shortcomings in an author's ability to communicate than it does any service to the reader. But that's my opinion. Maybe don't write the poem on drugs... idk.
    - zimpenfish 4y ago
      > Maybe don't write the poem on drugs... Curious where you got that impression? I can't see anything in the bit where he's writing the poem that he mentions anything even vaguely pertaining to drugs.
- mgrthrow 4y ago
antiterra 4y ago
He had an agent he could have just called up— but you see this all the time. People think that sorting out business with contracts ruins friendships, but it’s very often the lack of contract and the resulting fight that irreparably severs relationships. It’s not just some capitalism v art thing either. It’s communicating and promising and accountability. To anyone reading, if you’ve got a business partner and you think he’s given you 50% of a business because he said it one night at dinner, saying you’re cofounders— get it on paper in terms you both agree to. Go halfsies on a lawyer who helps you both accurately match terms (copyright assignment is one of those things where particular wording, intent and employment arrangement are important.) If you have doubts, maybe watch The Social Network or read about Hoefler&Co. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoefler_%26_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoefler_%26_Co.)
- afterburner 4y ago
  What struck me is it doesn't seem these people really were his friends. He didn't know them before writing the poem, it seems he only communicated with them via email, and then only regarding the poem, and he certainly wasn't friends with them afterwards. I mean I'm probably missing a lot of details that weren't necessary to the telling of this story, but perhaps the lesson here is don't assume people are your friends when all you have is a brief business relationship.
gary_0 4y ago
I'd like to believe the contrary. It is in the nature of an artist to create needless complication. That is art, that is culture, that is human life. Without it, we just consume starches and protein until we are full, grunt directions at one another, and fuck passionlessly to soothe the itch in our loins. And then we die. Then again, maybe that's all that's happening anyways.
Scarblac 4y ago
He even had an agent. He realizes he should have just let the agent handle it. And then when they come back for the contract in 2014, he just does it again! Still, thought this was very well written, and he's not assigning them the blame. I don't think Notch ever was his friend though.

by hoten 4y ago

jesterman 4y ago

There definitely was, as they mentioned in the article. They choose not to though, opting instead to just sit on it for a long time I guess? Hopefully they talked to a lawyer before releasing this though, and hopefully Microsoft doesn’t go after this guy.

krisoft 4y ago
> hopefully Microsoft doesn’t go after this guy Let’s not spread FUD, what would they go after for this guy and why?
- rippercushions 4y ago
  It would not be too hard for Microsoft to argue that they did come to an agreement with the artist to transfer the rights in exchange for 20,000 euros, so they do now own the copyright to the End Poem and will sue for damages if the artist reneges on the deal and starts claiming it's public domain. I hope they don't, but they definitely could. It would be a PR nightmare though, and there's not all much to be gained either (how much money can you make with the poem if you can't mention Minecraft?), so with any luck that will stop them.
  - yownie 4y ago
    without a contract how do you propose they could do that?
    - rippercushions 4y ago
      For legal purposes, verbal agreements can be contracts, plus here there's an email trail that includes what very much looks like an acceptance of terms by the author.
- xmprt 4y ago
  They had a long conversation over email and an exchange of payment for the right to at least use the poem. Whether you like it or not, that can count as a contract. It might be different in different jurisdictions but here's the US definition of a contract (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract): > The basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality.
  - yownie 4y ago
    that still doesnt get them perpetual rights nor ownership
  - tsak 4y ago
    Also the guy was living in Germany at the time so German laws apply which are different in regards to copyright.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    > They had a long conversation over email and an exchange of payment for the right to at least use the poem. I agree with that. This would be a real encumberance if the author were to decide he wants to sue someone. But that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing if Microsoft will sue the author. We are not discussing if Microsoft can sue him. The way this works anyone can sue anyone for pretty much any reason. So that is not an interesting question. So will they sue? The problem with these kind of informal contracts is that they are vague. Vague in practical terms means two things: 1 the outcome of any legal action is uncertain. 2 things take longer. This means that litigating things about them are expensive and uncertain. And here I repeat: the question here is not if they can use it, but if they paid for exclusive rights. So on one hand you have a huge mess of a litigation. On an other hand do you think microsoft is meaningfully and perceptibly harmed here? Do you think they will sell less game licences or ender dragon plushies because of this? I very much doubt it. Based on the balance of these two above do you feel it is in the best interest of Microsoft to sue the author?
    - 4y ago

a257 4y ago

Such a world sounds unappealing, if not naive and silly - why can't people be motivated by multiple reasons anyways? The author doesn't claim that they are a great at business in the first place.

jchw 4y ago

They do express regret for not simply doing this, so I guess you are right. But, the story wouldn't be very interesting if it had played out that way, so I guess here we are.

dcow 4y ago

Yeah I feel a twist in my gut for this guy. He is so frustrated it's incredible. He wrote 90% more than he needed to on this topic. The essay is long and rambling and I've missed any point he's trying to make... much like the words of his "End Poem". They are senseless and, ultimately, meaningless. They are not deep. They are incoherent. No wonder he's stuck in a narrative of his own creation. That's his life. If his emails with Carl were anything like his writing in this essay, then any reasonable person would have been at wits end trying to negotiate with this guy. He is right about one thing, though: the universe owes him nothing. All of his problems could have been solved if he just did the sensible normal thing any person would do and have a lawyer help him figure it out.

antiterra 4y ago
The end poem is fine. It doesn’t have particularly interesting rhythm, sound or structure in a ‘poetic’ way until the last bit. It has some weird stops, starts and repetition, but it’s coherent overall and has a functional enough core metaphor. Plus, the payoff is being told you matter, that you’re not alone. You know, the ‘we are all made of stars’ bit. It can be a powerful thought if you let it.
- dcow 4y ago
  I realize I'm being critical. For me any message contained therein would have landed much more powerfully if it was communicated more gracefully. I, personally, believe that such stylized writing serves more to cover up shortcomings in an author's ability to communicate than it does any service to the reader. But that's my opinion. Maybe don't write the poem on drugs... idk.
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > Maybe don't write the poem on drugs... Curious where you got that impression? I can't see anything in the bit where he's writing the poem that he mentions anything even vaguely pertaining to drugs.
mgrthrow 4y ago

antiterra 4y ago

He had an agent he could have just called up— but you see this all the time. People think that sorting out business with contracts ruins friendships, but it’s very often the lack of contract and the resulting fight that irreparably severs relationships. It’s not just some capitalism v art thing either. It’s communicating and promising and accountability. To anyone reading, if you’ve got a business partner and you think he’s given you 50% of a business because he said it one night at dinner, saying you’re cofounders— get it on paper in terms you both agree to. Go halfsies on a lawyer who helps you both accurately match terms (copyright assignment is one of those things where particular wording, intent and employment arrangement are important.) If you have doubts, maybe watch The Social Network or read about Hoefler&Co. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoefler_%26_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoefler_%26_Co.)

afterburner 4y ago
What struck me is it doesn't seem these people really were his friends. He didn't know them before writing the poem, it seems he only communicated with them via email, and then only regarding the poem, and he certainly wasn't friends with them afterwards. I mean I'm probably missing a lot of details that weren't necessary to the telling of this story, but perhaps the lesson here is don't assume people are your friends when all you have is a brief business relationship.

gary_0 4y ago

I'd like to believe the contrary. It is in the nature of an artist to create needless complication. That is art, that is culture, that is human life. Without it, we just consume starches and protein until we are full, grunt directions at one another, and fuck passionlessly to soothe the itch in our loins. And then we die. Then again, maybe that's all that's happening anyways.

Scarblac 4y ago

He even had an agent. He realizes he should have just let the agent handle it. And then when they come back for the contract in 2014, he just does it again! Still, thought this was very well written, and he's not assigning them the blame. I don't think Notch ever was his friend though.