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Actually yes: container ships are extremely efficient modes of transportation. As are trains. The most carbon-intensive parts of logistics are often the first a
by Manuel_D 4y ago
Actually yes: container ships are extremely efficient modes of transportation. As are trains. The most carbon-intensive parts of logistics are often the first and last segment when goods are transported via roads.
Container ships produce a lot of emissions, but they also move a lot of cargo. On a CO2 per kilogram per mile basis, containers ships vastly beat out automobiles.
- Tempest1981 4y agoWhich type(s) of automobiles do they beat?
- Panzer04 4y agoEverything? It's not close, trucks are very inefficient compared to trains and boats.
- Manuel_D 4y agoRoad transportation emits about a hundred times more for the same mass and distance. I'm sure they're referring to ICE vehicles not electric, but the former still accounts for the vast majority of automobile freight transport. https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/freight-transportation https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/freight-transportation
- uoaei 4y agoAccording to this link, rail is more efficient per tonne-kilometer than ships are, which contradicts many others in these comments claiming the opposite without supporting citations. Per the source above, rail is most efficient at 128k, then ships at 97.3k, then road at 10.8k, where units are in tonne-kilometers shipped per tonne of CO2 emitted.
- spaceman_2020 4y agoWhy would the alternative to container ships be…automobiles? If you’re manufacturing locally, you’d want to move large volumes of goods by rail or where available, river transport, both of which produce a lot less CO2 than container ships.
- midoridensha 4y agoNo, they don't. Container ships produce less CO2 per tonne than trains, by a large margin.
- Manuel_D 4y agoThe point is the local transportation accounts for the significant majority of carbon emissions from freight transportation. Moving goods 3000 miles by ship and another 100 miles by road is not much more emissions than moving goods only 100 miles by road. A more effective change would be to make transportation emit less greenhouse gases. Get hydrogen powered container ships and electric vehicles. This would reduce greenhouse gases significantly more, and wouldn't involve destroying the global economy.
- throwaway2037 4y agoI like this comment. I do believe the global logistics industry will adapt to a low carbon future, rather than dismantle itself (and the world economy). In short, it is a death sentence for their business. And no business wants to go bankrupt, so they will adapt -- at least: try to. Do you think ammonia or hydrogen is more likely to be used for ships? At this time, I am leaning towards ammonia because storage and infrastructure is simpler. Funny side note: While writing this post, I was doing a bunch of Google searches about ammonia, hydrogen, and blue vs green. Every single search returned a single ad from Saudi Aramco touting their blue ammonia and hydrogen capabilities. Incredibly depressing. The non-petro states need to hurry up and cover the center 80% of Australia with solar panels (Chilean Andes and North Africa too) to produce whatever green industrial inputs we need from "thin air". Maybe we can run a bunch of carbon sequestration machines too. In parallel, we can drive up carbon taxes.
- Manuel_D 4y agoMy perspective is that Ammonia is a storage mechanism for hydrogen. The question is more like cryogenic vs compressed air vs chemical (such as ammonia, or hydrogen peroxide). A bigger question is production: solar, hydro, and wind are probably cheapest for electrolysis. Thermochemical production may make sense for nuclear or geothermal based power. Maybe Iceland becomes a big gas station for transatlantic shipping, based on geothermal energy?
- midoridensha 4y agoActually, gigantic container ships beat everything else, by a large margin, including trains. It's cheaper to ship stuff to California from China by ship than by train from the east coast states. Automobiles are the worst and least efficient mode of transportation, and should be severely curtailed.
- Manuel_D 4y agoMany train networks are electrified outside of north America. That's a different story especially in countries with lower carbon intensity of electricity. But yes, on the whole it's correct that common assumption that the distance freight travels equates to the overall carbon intensity of transit is incorrect.
- uoaei 4y agoI'm not sure what is meant by "beat" but if you're just talking about costs, then this is an irrelevant point. Rather, the effect of trade agreements is so substantial that cost per tonne shipped by no means reflects an equilibrium under free market conditions.