4 ms·

What does it even mean to “drop out of the labor force”? They literally decided life was better without working anymore? Or they found some alternative “off the

What does it even mean to “drop out of the labor force”? They literally decided life was better without working anymore? Or they found some alternative “off the books” income that was more lucrative? If all it took was knowing someone else was making more money than you to decide you don’t need to work then why would you have ever worked to begin with? I thought it was just for the paycheck.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
trashface 4y ago
I'm late 40s and basically the kind of man the article describes. I have saved up enough that I can go some time without working. My house is paid off. But I'm definitely spending my retirement funds. My estimate is 5% chance I'm homeless within 20 years. Untreated ADHD is the main thing keeping me out of the workforce. Thank our government's restrictive policies around the diagnosis and medication for that. But its not like I'm sitting around enjoying the high life. My spending is basically poverty level. Most people would find it completely inadequate. No wife/kids so that helps. I'm not _completely_ unemployed, I have a programming contract but I barely bill any hours. Also 10-15% of my time is spent providing what I call "social support" for my aging parents.
- Zircom 4y ago
  >Thank our government's restrictive policies around the diagnosis and medication for that. Quite to the contrary I don't think ADHD diagnoses/prescriptions have ever been easier. They literally have online pill mills that will get you an ADHD diagnosis and an Adderall prescription within a week. I went the more traditional route with an actual psychiatrist office, but after the initial appointments and testing, I just have one appointment every 3 months with my psychiatrist which basically amounts to "hey is everything still going alright" "yup life is good" and they write me the scrip for the next 3 months. It's literally a 10 minute televisit most of the time unless we get sidetracked talking about some tangent like we do occasionally.
  - trashface 4y ago
    Admittedly I have not tried super hard, and I was on an HMO when I did and they just love to throw up arbitrary gates (same insurance wouldn't even give me a clear answer on how or whether I could get an echocardiogram my primary doc ordered for me). Next year I will try again on my new insurance which is a PPO. But I know my primary doc doesn't want to treat me for this.
    - NLPaep 4y ago
      Try GoodRx to fill or get your prescriptions without insurance. It can be cheaper than a deductible. ADHD medication is showing up as $16.11 monthly after tax in my area. It’s very easy and cheap to get treated.
vinyl7 4y ago
> What does it even mean to “drop out of the labor force”? They literally decided life was better without working anymore? I've contemplated this before. I ask my self, is the effort of going to a job for 40+ hours a week and dealing with that stress worth it if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)? The asinine housing and rental markets and difficulties finding a mate are really the two driving forces I see that would drive men to quit playing the game.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  All these comments (and I guess the article too) seem to only focus on men, and completely ignore whatever is happening with women. Obviously, there's approximately as many women as there are men (in fact, at older ages, women outnumber men since men tend to die early). I'm not female, so I can only offer limited insight here, but what I've observed with single women over 40 is that they basically don't need men, though many of them lament that they didn't get to have children, and many even keep talking about having some up until about 50, which seems to be the point they usually give up. However, aside from that, they seem to have healthier social lives than single men in the same age group: they're much better about cultivating friendships (normally with other women, but not always) and pursuing extracurricular interests. At some point, they realize that finding a partner is actually not in their best interest, because if you're a 50 year old woman, it's likely only 55+ and usually 60+ men will be interested in dating you, and for a woman that means a guy who's probably very conservative (likely a Trumper), which doesn't appeal to as many women, and worse than that, a guy who she's basically going to have to take care of pretty soon since he'll be older and likely in poor health. So it's really not worth it unless he's got one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel and has a lot of financial assets that she stands to inherit in exchange for becoming his caregiver for an indeterminate amount of time. So what I've seen is basically a lot of women also opting out of families and marriage (by not settling), and leading individualistic lives with their female friend groups, enjoying their independence, traveling, etc. >if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)? I think, pretty soon, "raising a family" isn't going to be considered a "standard human thing". The current situation is simply unsustainable: not enough people are having kids to keep the population level stable and keep the economy going. So something is going to have to change, in a big way. I predict the society of "Brave New World" is going to become the norm, where the government mostly handles procreation and child-raising.
Spooky23 4y ago
It means they aren’t in the labor market as defined by DOL. The obvious, simple answer is that unskilled laborers or people with skills not valued or people aging out of physical jobs have three paths: be supported by a partner, get on disability, or work off the books. The plethora of gig economy jobs makes it much easier to work and avoid taxes or formal works arrangements. People even sub out DoorDash jobs, etc. Faced with the prospect of making $20/hr in a warehouse or as a retail manager, you can make more money with casual labor. Also remember that with the big crackdowns on migrant labor, there’s big gaps in the labor force. If you get laid off from a retail job, you go get some roofing gigs and collect unemployment for awhile.
salawat 4y ago
You need to understand, that unemployment is measured in reference to those collecting state unemployment benefits. Dropping out of the statistical labor force is as easy as resigning, not filing for unemployment, and not using any government job search systems. I kind of have to laugh at the idea that that is how they measure the labor force. I often amuse myself of the shenanigans that would ensue if everyone coordinated a drop out at the same time. Be much like a bank run I suppose. I'd guess Capital would construe it as a coordinated strike and go after Congress to do something damnit. Imagining the outcomes of carefully cobbled together, yet fairly daft societal control metrics unravel is one of my precious few remaining sources of entertainment.
twelve40 4y ago
Long-term it's probably some combo of leeching off your spouse if you have one, burning through you credit/house if you have one, drugs and homelessness, living with parents if they are still around, and for people who didn't completely lose it, cash gigs (but that's not what this article is about, i think). None of these options sound very savory. While technically possible, there is zero security, constant depression and if you are leeching off someone (probably also pretty broke), you're one fight away from being homeless.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

trashface 4y ago

I'm late 40s and basically the kind of man the article describes. I have saved up enough that I can go some time without working. My house is paid off. But I'm definitely spending my retirement funds. My estimate is 5% chance I'm homeless within 20 years. Untreated ADHD is the main thing keeping me out of the workforce. Thank our government's restrictive policies around the diagnosis and medication for that. But its not like I'm sitting around enjoying the high life. My spending is basically poverty level. Most people would find it completely inadequate. No wife/kids so that helps. I'm not _completely_ unemployed, I have a programming contract but I barely bill any hours. Also 10-15% of my time is spent providing what I call "social support" for my aging parents.

Zircom 4y ago
>Thank our government's restrictive policies around the diagnosis and medication for that. Quite to the contrary I don't think ADHD diagnoses/prescriptions have ever been easier. They literally have online pill mills that will get you an ADHD diagnosis and an Adderall prescription within a week. I went the more traditional route with an actual psychiatrist office, but after the initial appointments and testing, I just have one appointment every 3 months with my psychiatrist which basically amounts to "hey is everything still going alright" "yup life is good" and they write me the scrip for the next 3 months. It's literally a 10 minute televisit most of the time unless we get sidetracked talking about some tangent like we do occasionally.
- trashface 4y ago
  Admittedly I have not tried super hard, and I was on an HMO when I did and they just love to throw up arbitrary gates (same insurance wouldn't even give me a clear answer on how or whether I could get an echocardiogram my primary doc ordered for me). Next year I will try again on my new insurance which is a PPO. But I know my primary doc doesn't want to treat me for this.
  - NLPaep 4y ago
    Try GoodRx to fill or get your prescriptions without insurance. It can be cheaper than a deductible. ADHD medication is showing up as $16.11 monthly after tax in my area. It’s very easy and cheap to get treated.

vinyl7 4y ago

> What does it even mean to “drop out of the labor force”? They literally decided life was better without working anymore? I've contemplated this before. I ask my self, is the effort of going to a job for 40+ hours a week and dealing with that stress worth it if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)? The asinine housing and rental markets and difficulties finding a mate are really the two driving forces I see that would drive men to quit playing the game.

midoridensha 4y ago
All these comments (and I guess the article too) seem to only focus on men, and completely ignore whatever is happening with women. Obviously, there's approximately as many women as there are men (in fact, at older ages, women outnumber men since men tend to die early). I'm not female, so I can only offer limited insight here, but what I've observed with single women over 40 is that they basically don't need men, though many of them lament that they didn't get to have children, and many even keep talking about having some up until about 50, which seems to be the point they usually give up. However, aside from that, they seem to have healthier social lives than single men in the same age group: they're much better about cultivating friendships (normally with other women, but not always) and pursuing extracurricular interests. At some point, they realize that finding a partner is actually not in their best interest, because if you're a 50 year old woman, it's likely only 55+ and usually 60+ men will be interested in dating you, and for a woman that means a guy who's probably very conservative (likely a Trumper), which doesn't appeal to as many women, and worse than that, a guy who she's basically going to have to take care of pretty soon since he'll be older and likely in poor health. So it's really not worth it unless he's got one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel and has a lot of financial assets that she stands to inherit in exchange for becoming his caregiver for an indeterminate amount of time. So what I've seen is basically a lot of women also opting out of families and marriage (by not settling), and leading individualistic lives with their female friend groups, enjoying their independence, traveling, etc. >if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)? I think, pretty soon, "raising a family" isn't going to be considered a "standard human thing". The current situation is simply unsustainable: not enough people are having kids to keep the population level stable and keep the economy going. So something is going to have to change, in a big way. I predict the society of "Brave New World" is going to become the norm, where the government mostly handles procreation and child-raising.

Spooky23 4y ago

It means they aren’t in the labor market as defined by DOL. The obvious, simple answer is that unskilled laborers or people with skills not valued or people aging out of physical jobs have three paths: be supported by a partner, get on disability, or work off the books. The plethora of gig economy jobs makes it much easier to work and avoid taxes or formal works arrangements. People even sub out DoorDash jobs, etc. Faced with the prospect of making $20/hr in a warehouse or as a retail manager, you can make more money with casual labor. Also remember that with the big crackdowns on migrant labor, there’s big gaps in the labor force. If you get laid off from a retail job, you go get some roofing gigs and collect unemployment for awhile.

salawat 4y ago

You need to understand, that unemployment is measured in reference to those collecting state unemployment benefits. Dropping out of the statistical labor force is as easy as resigning, not filing for unemployment, and not using any government job search systems. I kind of have to laugh at the idea that that is how they measure the labor force. I often amuse myself of the shenanigans that would ensue if everyone coordinated a drop out at the same time. Be much like a bank run I suppose. I'd guess Capital would construe it as a coordinated strike and go after Congress to do something damnit. Imagining the outcomes of carefully cobbled together, yet fairly daft societal control metrics unravel is one of my precious few remaining sources of entertainment.

twelve40 4y ago

Long-term it's probably some combo of leeching off your spouse if you have one, burning through you credit/house if you have one, drugs and homelessness, living with parents if they are still around, and for people who didn't completely lose it, cash gigs (but that's not what this article is about, i think). None of these options sound very savory. While technically possible, there is zero security, constant depression and if you are leeching off someone (probably also pretty broke), you're one fight away from being homeless.