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I've followed this for quite some time now, not just Apples implementation of CSAM detection tools but the many other large cloud players including Cloudflare a

I've followed this for quite some time now, not just Apples implementation of CSAM detection tools but the many other large cloud players including Cloudflare and Google who have had this in place for a number of years. Whilst Apple's initial implementation might have been more aggressive than some of the other players. I do think that CSAM detection technology is a good way of being able to detect this type of information. However with all things, there is an opportunity to use it for good and bad. We love using technology to improve our lives, but seem to actively despite using technology to plug the dangerous gaps in these cloud services. The public don't mind using cloud services despite terrible CSAM and terrorist content being circulated throughout them undetected, but resist when other technology might try detect it.

lalopalota 4y ago
The public also doesn't mind using postal services despite terrible CSAM and terrorist content being circulated throughout them undetected, but rightfully resist when other technology might try detect it.
- oneplane 4y ago
  You know that it's a distinction WITH a big difference right? Physical items take up physical space, have to physically be in transit and can be physically on a person on at a persons property. Hiding one phone is much easier than hiding many boxes of pictures of children being raped or abused in various different ways. The phone can also contain much more material than an entire room or house could contain. Personally I don't care about the argument that privacy is oh-so-special, you can have that all day long, as long as you also fight equally for the prevention and containment of CSAM, which most self-proclaimed privacy advocates tend to not do.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    What's the difference? The only significance of the pictures is that serves to prove that you were party to the rape/abuse, either directly or indirectly (i.e. gave reason for someone else to produce the content). The quantity of content makes little difference. The child wasn't doubly abused by someone behind the camera being shutter happy. Stashing away one physical photo or one phone with hundreds of pictures of the act doesn't really change anything.
    - oneplane 4y ago
      The effort and timelines are different. Deleing a few pictures or wiping a phone is a lot easier and faster than trying to hide many Kg of material taking up many m^3 of space. Sharing something physical is also harder, you have to copy/reproduce it, and then distribute it, which also means at many points in time multiple copies are close/near to the owner. Getting caught via 1000 leads pointing to the owner is a lot more likely than 1 lead (in the shape of a phone).
TeMPOraL 4y ago
> The public don't mind using cloud services despite terrible CSAM and terrorist content being circulated throughout them undetected, but resist when other technology might try detect it. Isn't it obvious, though? CSAM and terrorism is a tragedy, but for most of us, it's out of sight, out of mind (second-order consequences we all suffer from are less apparent). The calculus changes once someone introduce technology that has non-zero chance of having a false positive that lands you in prison, or on a sex offender list, or even makes you go through a trial which is bound to destroy your life through the rumors alone - despite you being completely innocent. Technology that reaches into files you consider private (whether on-device or in the cloud) and never intended to share with a wide audience. Technology that fundamentally can't distinguish between what's legal private data and what's a crime. Technology that's not just a potential threat, but also whose very existence makes you realize the vendors lied to you, or at least misled you, with respect to who owns what on the phone and in the cloud. This is less about CSAM per se, and more about Apple scaring countless tech-aware parents shitless, all while reminding everyone that their smartphones and their cloud storage aren't really theirs, and never were. If Google and Dropbox and Cloudflare got a free pass here, it's because they weren't this blatant with it.
- rainsford 4y ago
  I get the concern, but is there any evidence to suggest technology based solutions by themselves lead to any of those obviously bad false positive outcomes? Has anybody ever been send to prison, placed on a sex offender list, or even been charged based purely on the output of an automated evaluation that you posses CSAM or some other illegal material? One can certainly imagine the dystopian horror of such a scenario, but whatever the specific technology in question, it's difficult to imagine it playing out in the current legal system of any of country that isn't already based around just semi-randomly throwing people in jail.
  - omginternets 4y ago
    >I get the concern, but is there any evidence to suggest technology based solutions by themselves lead to any of those obviously bad false positive outcomes? Yes. In fact, it's mathematically provable that these false positives must happen, unless you never label anything as CSAM. Welcome to signal detection theory; it's a really cool, and useful field. I recommend this book: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781410611949/primer-signal-detection-theory-mcnicol https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/97814106119...
deleted 4y ago
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lalopalota 4y ago

The public also doesn't mind using postal services despite terrible CSAM and terrorist content being circulated throughout them undetected, but rightfully resist when other technology might try detect it.

oneplane 4y ago
You know that it's a distinction WITH a big difference right? Physical items take up physical space, have to physically be in transit and can be physically on a person on at a persons property. Hiding one phone is much easier than hiding many boxes of pictures of children being raped or abused in various different ways. The phone can also contain much more material than an entire room or house could contain. Personally I don't care about the argument that privacy is oh-so-special, you can have that all day long, as long as you also fight equally for the prevention and containment of CSAM, which most self-proclaimed privacy advocates tend to not do.
- randomdata 4y ago
  What's the difference? The only significance of the pictures is that serves to prove that you were party to the rape/abuse, either directly or indirectly (i.e. gave reason for someone else to produce the content). The quantity of content makes little difference. The child wasn't doubly abused by someone behind the camera being shutter happy. Stashing away one physical photo or one phone with hundreds of pictures of the act doesn't really change anything.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    The effort and timelines are different. Deleing a few pictures or wiping a phone is a lot easier and faster than trying to hide many Kg of material taking up many m^3 of space. Sharing something physical is also harder, you have to copy/reproduce it, and then distribute it, which also means at many points in time multiple copies are close/near to the owner. Getting caught via 1000 leads pointing to the owner is a lot more likely than 1 lead (in the shape of a phone).

TeMPOraL 4y ago

> The public don't mind using cloud services despite terrible CSAM and terrorist content being circulated throughout them undetected, but resist when other technology might try detect it. Isn't it obvious, though? CSAM and terrorism is a tragedy, but for most of us, it's out of sight, out of mind (second-order consequences we all suffer from are less apparent). The calculus changes once someone introduce technology that has non-zero chance of having a false positive that lands you in prison, or on a sex offender list, or even makes you go through a trial which is bound to destroy your life through the rumors alone - despite you being completely innocent. Technology that reaches into files you consider private (whether on-device or in the cloud) and never intended to share with a wide audience. Technology that fundamentally can't distinguish between what's legal private data and what's a crime. Technology that's not just a potential threat, but also whose very existence makes you realize the vendors lied to you, or at least misled you, with respect to who owns what on the phone and in the cloud. This is less about CSAM per se, and more about Apple scaring countless tech-aware parents shitless, all while reminding everyone that their smartphones and their cloud storage aren't really theirs, and never were. If Google and Dropbox and Cloudflare got a free pass here, it's because they weren't this blatant with it.

rainsford 4y ago
I get the concern, but is there any evidence to suggest technology based solutions by themselves lead to any of those obviously bad false positive outcomes? Has anybody ever been send to prison, placed on a sex offender list, or even been charged based purely on the output of an automated evaluation that you posses CSAM or some other illegal material? One can certainly imagine the dystopian horror of such a scenario, but whatever the specific technology in question, it's difficult to imagine it playing out in the current legal system of any of country that isn't already based around just semi-randomly throwing people in jail.
- omginternets 4y ago
  >I get the concern, but is there any evidence to suggest technology based solutions by themselves lead to any of those obviously bad false positive outcomes? Yes. In fact, it's mathematically provable that these false positives must happen, unless you never label anything as CSAM. Welcome to signal detection theory; it's a really cool, and useful field. I recommend this book: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781410611949/primer-signal-detection-theory-mcnicol https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/97814106119...

deleted 4y ago

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