12 ms·

> 1) they just ate every other 3rd party "secure" backup services lunch just like they did to the Hi-Res music industry. This is an excellent point as to why y

> 1) they just ate every other 3rd party "secure" backup services lunch just like they did to the Hi-Res music industry. This is an excellent point as to why you shouldn't even bother trying to develop software for apple machines. If it's anywhere near successful apple will just destroy you, after having taken a 30% cut from your revenue for years.

juve1996 4y ago
Apple will destroy you regardless, they're a megacorp. If the software is good but only on windows they'll just make their own.
pixl97 4y ago
- behnamoh 4y ago
  I get this sentiment, but where do we draw the line? Shouldn’t OS makers (Apple, Microsoft) add additional apps just because third party developers have done it already?
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I would state it as this "If you buy a phone or general purpose computing device, you have the legal right to choose your app store and applications installed on it seperate from manufacture demands". The particular problem with Apple is not only duplicate your app, they can underprice it by 30% because they don't self pay their own store tax, and they can kick you out of the only app store for whatever reason they choose to make up that day.
    - Cheezmeister 4y ago
      > If you buy a phone or general purpose computing device Point of clarity, the devices we are discussing are neither telephones, nor are they general purpose. They are smartphones, a sort of miniature computer with a bunch of general-purpose sensors, and actuators viz. a screen and a speaker and some haptic feedback. They don't really do much computing per se; we outsourced most of that to The Cloud some 15-odd years ago. These things are just highly capable I/O devices, or clever terminals if you prefer. And while Android has the PlayStore or whatever they call it this week, one can usually choose to load rogue APKs and one can usually succeed; and things like the Pinephone or Fairphone have been attempted that leave more power (and responsibility) in the hands of the user, but in practice it seems that they simply don't _work_ that well. I agree with you wholeheartedly; I just think the "if" part is a bit out of sync with reality.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      I remember back in the early days of the iPhone, new feature releases would coincide with lots of apps being removed from the app store with the reason "this app duplicates core functionality of iOS."
    - abbusfoflouotne 4y ago
      I like this view, though many people aren't just purchasing the phone from Apple, they are purchasing the OS and integration into the Apple ecosystem. Definitely think the user should have the option to pick the app store though
    - arghnoname 4y ago
      Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software very much. Instead it's mostly used to increase the value of the hardware. The stuff I've seen them incorporate that at one time were apps weren't 30% cheaper when bought from Apple, they were free (i.e., they came with the device). If they think some third party feature should be part of the core experience, they're going to incorporate it. This is true when building on anyone's platform (e.g., Microsoft, Facebook). Non-core experiences, like domain specific software, are less likely to suffer this fate. It's similar to when MS decided to ship a browser. God help you when the platform you're on decides they want to subsume your features.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        > Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software very much. This is veritably false, they made $80 billion selling software this year. You might not see the App Store as software revenue, but Apple certainly does.
        chipotle_coyote 4y ago
        The context of the text you quoted seems to pretty clearly be about Apple selling their own software, e.g., as a publisher, not as a distributor. This whole branch of the discussion thread is, after all, about whether Apple adding end-to-end encryption for iCloud backups is "sherlocking" other cloud backup providers (spoiler: no).
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        > Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software As sheer hardware revenue growth slowed, they moved their focus to services [0]. That’s also what we’re seeing on their push into more ads for instance, and this new feature goes the same direction: to benefit these encrypted backups you’ll need to sign up for storage. For most people wanting to cover more than one device, they’ll probably end up with the 2Tb plan which is at 10 bucks a month, the bare minimum 50GB being at 1$ a month. [0] https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/how-services-became-apple-s-fastest-growing-revenue-category/ https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/how-services-bec...
    - scarface74 4y ago
      And neither does Spotify or Netflix. They haven’t had in app subscriptions for years. Amazon seems to be doing well despite Apple Books.
  - enjo 4y ago
    That's exactly the antitrust issue Microsoft ran into isn't it?
    - bink 4y ago
      Microsoft had something around 95% of the desktop market share in the 90s. Apple is not anywhere close that. I would agree it's similar in behavior but not intent. Microsoft was terrified of the Internet and applications that could "run anywhere" so they tried to control how people accessed the Internet. Apple is arguably adding these features because it's what their user's want.
      - spogbiper 4y ago
        > Microsoft was terrified of the Internet and applications that could "run anywhere" so they tried to control how people accessed the Internet I see reflections of this throughout the history of the iPhone. Apple has always controlled how people access both the internet and even what applications they can install. Every "browser" on iOS is just Safari with a skin for example, because Apple will not allow any other browser engine.
        danaris 4y ago
        Apple will not allow other browser engines because they are a subset of "programs that run arbitrary code". Allowing anyone to put their browser engine on iOS through the App Store would open the door to a wide variety of security problems. It would also effectively bypass the App Store, as Google (just as a totally random example) could release their own iOS "browser" that's actually their own platform for apps that they sell. Not to mention inserting their own ads into anything people browsed on it. And tracking literally every single tap and text entry that people do in that browser, including bank passwords, credit card info, etc. On a platform like the Mac, that doesn't matter very much, because it's small enough that basically no one would bother. On iOS? If you could get 0.0001¢ per website visit from even 1% of iOS users, that would be a money-printing machine.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
- kergonath 4y ago
  Sherlocking is a very old issue. It has nothing to do with what Apple is trying to become now.
behnamoh 4y ago
Spotify is pretty successful and yet, Apple went in direct competition with them, using APIs that only Apple gets to use in their Music app (like integration with Siri).
- j16sdiz 4y ago
  You can change the default music app for siri since ios 14 https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/set-preferred-music-streaming-service-siri/ https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/set-preferred-music-streami...
  - vanilla_nut 4y ago
    And yet I still can't change the default music app that opens on macOS when I hit the media keys!
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - DrBenCarson 4y ago
      You can easily map your own macros....
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Or use Linux, the highly advanced MPRIS protocol is capable of tracking multiple media applications and presenting their playback controls. It's like space-age tech!
        russelg 4y ago
        macOS does the same... The only difference is when you don't have a player open at all.
    - danaris 4y ago
      In recent versions, the "default" is just whatever last played media—if you were watching a YouTube video yesterday, and the tab is still open, pressing the play/pause key will start it playing again. There's even a little menu bar widget (it's called the Now Playing menu, and you can find it under Control Center in the system settings) that shows all the instances of actively- or recently-playing media the system knows about. Whatever is on top (IIRC) is what will automatically be controlled by the media keys.
ir77 4y ago
ok, i may buy your argument from a perspective of a brand new cloud storage provider that's try to come up online and break into the market, but you're telling me that Dropbox, OneDrive, Box., etc., are all indie developers living in their parent's basements? These companies made a conscious choice not to offer encryption and now got the rug pulled out from under them. steve jobs famously said that this "Storage" is just a feature, not a product, and now they've proved it. additionally, as far as i can see, those apps all free to download and you can buy their plans outside of the apple ecosystem and thus they get a free ride in the App Store without giving away any cut to apple.
kaba0 4y ago
While I am the very first one to fight for allowing side loading on apple devices, didn’t Netherland’s dating services decided in the end to go with Apple’s payment processing even with that cut?
fleddr 4y ago
Similar model that Amazon uses. You pretty much have to be on their store to sell something, which means you give them access to your sales and customers. Which is a concept that is absolutely wild in any normal healthy competitive landscape. Then they'll monitor and if you manage to actually be successful, 3 months later there's an Amazon Basics version of your product. It's so incredible to me how these practices get no push-back. There used to be a time where in the case of Windows, people were wondering if its fair that they ship it with a calculator program. Now you can just use your massive platform and extend in every possible direction, seize secondary markets, nobody seems to care.
- antipaul 4y ago
  I think this is the part that is not legal, and which they say the don't do, etc * Amazon uses third-party seller data to copy the site's most popular products, an antitrust report by the House Judiciary Committee alleged on Wednesday. * Former Amazon sellers told an antitrust subcommittee the company released new products almost identical to their own and "killed" their sales. * Amazon has denied accusations of this behavior in the past. "We have a policy against using seller-specific data to aid our private-label business," Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos said in July. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-uses-seller-data-copy-products-alleges-house-antitrust-report-2020-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-uses-seller-data-copy...
  - fleddr 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbxWGjQ2szQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbxWGjQ2szQ
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  > There used to be a time where in the case of Windows, people were wondering if its fair that they ship it with a calculator program. Now you can just use your massive platform and extend in every possible direction, seize secondary markets, nobody seems to care. Windows was artificially crippled by the DoJ ruling and not including a PDF reader by default. I, for one, like it when more is built into the OS by default.
- 4y ago
hirvi74 4y ago
Well on the optimistic side, they might buy your product or company, which they have done numerous times in the past like with Beats, Shazam, Siri, etc..
nine_k 4y ago
The only software worth developing for Apple machines is FOSS software, and one should not plan to make a living exclusively off it.
soraminazuki 4y ago
You’re comparing security improvements to sherlocking? That’s pure hyperbole.

juve1996 4y ago

Apple will destroy you regardless, they're a megacorp. If the software is good but only on windows they'll just make their own.

pixl97 4y ago

behnamoh 4y ago
I get this sentiment, but where do we draw the line? Shouldn’t OS makers (Apple, Microsoft) add additional apps just because third party developers have done it already?
- pixl97 4y ago
  I would state it as this "If you buy a phone or general purpose computing device, you have the legal right to choose your app store and applications installed on it seperate from manufacture demands". The particular problem with Apple is not only duplicate your app, they can underprice it by 30% because they don't self pay their own store tax, and they can kick you out of the only app store for whatever reason they choose to make up that day.
  - Cheezmeister 4y ago
    > If you buy a phone or general purpose computing device Point of clarity, the devices we are discussing are neither telephones, nor are they general purpose. They are smartphones, a sort of miniature computer with a bunch of general-purpose sensors, and actuators viz. a screen and a speaker and some haptic feedback. They don't really do much computing per se; we outsourced most of that to The Cloud some 15-odd years ago. These things are just highly capable I/O devices, or clever terminals if you prefer. And while Android has the PlayStore or whatever they call it this week, one can usually choose to load rogue APKs and one can usually succeed; and things like the Pinephone or Fairphone have been attempted that leave more power (and responsibility) in the hands of the user, but in practice it seems that they simply don't _work_ that well. I agree with you wholeheartedly; I just think the "if" part is a bit out of sync with reality.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    I remember back in the early days of the iPhone, new feature releases would coincide with lots of apps being removed from the app store with the reason "this app duplicates core functionality of iOS."
  - abbusfoflouotne 4y ago
    I like this view, though many people aren't just purchasing the phone from Apple, they are purchasing the OS and integration into the Apple ecosystem. Definitely think the user should have the option to pick the app store though
  - arghnoname 4y ago
    Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software very much. Instead it's mostly used to increase the value of the hardware. The stuff I've seen them incorporate that at one time were apps weren't 30% cheaper when bought from Apple, they were free (i.e., they came with the device). If they think some third party feature should be part of the core experience, they're going to incorporate it. This is true when building on anyone's platform (e.g., Microsoft, Facebook). Non-core experiences, like domain specific software, are less likely to suffer this fate. It's similar to when MS decided to ship a browser. God help you when the platform you're on decides they want to subsume your features.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      > Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software very much. This is veritably false, they made $80 billion selling software this year. You might not see the App Store as software revenue, but Apple certainly does.
      - chipotle_coyote 4y ago
        The context of the text you quoted seems to pretty clearly be about Apple selling their own software, e.g., as a publisher, not as a distributor. This whole branch of the discussion thread is, after all, about whether Apple adding end-to-end encryption for iCloud backups is "sherlocking" other cloud backup providers (spoiler: no).
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      > Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of selling software As sheer hardware revenue growth slowed, they moved their focus to services [0]. That’s also what we’re seeing on their push into more ads for instance, and this new feature goes the same direction: to benefit these encrypted backups you’ll need to sign up for storage. For most people wanting to cover more than one device, they’ll probably end up with the 2Tb plan which is at 10 bucks a month, the bare minimum 50GB being at 1$ a month. [0] https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/how-services-became-apple-s-fastest-growing-revenue-category/ https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/how-services-bec...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    And neither does Spotify or Netflix. They haven’t had in app subscriptions for years. Amazon seems to be doing well despite Apple Books.
- enjo 4y ago
  That's exactly the antitrust issue Microsoft ran into isn't it?
  - bink 4y ago
    Microsoft had something around 95% of the desktop market share in the 90s. Apple is not anywhere close that. I would agree it's similar in behavior but not intent. Microsoft was terrified of the Internet and applications that could "run anywhere" so they tried to control how people accessed the Internet. Apple is arguably adding these features because it's what their user's want.
    - spogbiper 4y ago
      > Microsoft was terrified of the Internet and applications that could "run anywhere" so they tried to control how people accessed the Internet I see reflections of this throughout the history of the iPhone. Apple has always controlled how people access both the internet and even what applications they can install. Every "browser" on iOS is just Safari with a skin for example, because Apple will not allow any other browser engine.
      - danaris 4y ago
        Apple will not allow other browser engines because they are a subset of "programs that run arbitrary code". Allowing anyone to put their browser engine on iOS through the App Store would open the door to a wide variety of security problems. It would also effectively bypass the App Store, as Google (just as a totally random example) could release their own iOS "browser" that's actually their own platform for apps that they sell. Not to mention inserting their own ads into anything people browsed on it. And tracking literally every single tap and text entry that people do in that browser, including bank passwords, credit card info, etc. On a platform like the Mac, that doesn't matter very much, because it's small enough that basically no one would bother. On iOS? If you could get 0.0001¢ per website visit from even 1% of iOS users, that would be a money-printing machine.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
kergonath 4y ago
Sherlocking is a very old issue. It has nothing to do with what Apple is trying to become now.

behnamoh 4y ago

Spotify is pretty successful and yet, Apple went in direct competition with them, using APIs that only Apple gets to use in their Music app (like integration with Siri).

j16sdiz 4y ago
You can change the default music app for siri since ios 14 https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/set-preferred-music-streaming-service-siri/ https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/set-preferred-music-streami...
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  And yet I still can't change the default music app that opens on macOS when I hit the media keys!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - DrBenCarson 4y ago
    You can easily map your own macros....
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Or use Linux, the highly advanced MPRIS protocol is capable of tracking multiple media applications and presenting their playback controls. It's like space-age tech!
      - russelg 4y ago
        macOS does the same... The only difference is when you don't have a player open at all.
  - danaris 4y ago
    In recent versions, the "default" is just whatever last played media—if you were watching a YouTube video yesterday, and the tab is still open, pressing the play/pause key will start it playing again. There's even a little menu bar widget (it's called the Now Playing menu, and you can find it under Control Center in the system settings) that shows all the instances of actively- or recently-playing media the system knows about. Whatever is on top (IIRC) is what will automatically be controlled by the media keys.

ir77 4y ago

ok, i may buy your argument from a perspective of a brand new cloud storage provider that's try to come up online and break into the market, but you're telling me that Dropbox, OneDrive, Box., etc., are all indie developers living in their parent's basements? These companies made a conscious choice not to offer encryption and now got the rug pulled out from under them. steve jobs famously said that this "Storage" is just a feature, not a product, and now they've proved it. additionally, as far as i can see, those apps all free to download and you can buy their plans outside of the apple ecosystem and thus they get a free ride in the App Store without giving away any cut to apple.

kaba0 4y ago

While I am the very first one to fight for allowing side loading on apple devices, didn’t Netherland’s dating services decided in the end to go with Apple’s payment processing even with that cut?

fleddr 4y ago

Similar model that Amazon uses. You pretty much have to be on their store to sell something, which means you give them access to your sales and customers. Which is a concept that is absolutely wild in any normal healthy competitive landscape. Then they'll monitor and if you manage to actually be successful, 3 months later there's an Amazon Basics version of your product. It's so incredible to me how these practices get no push-back. There used to be a time where in the case of Windows, people were wondering if its fair that they ship it with a calculator program. Now you can just use your massive platform and extend in every possible direction, seize secondary markets, nobody seems to care.

antipaul 4y ago
I think this is the part that is not legal, and which they say the don't do, etc * Amazon uses third-party seller data to copy the site's most popular products, an antitrust report by the House Judiciary Committee alleged on Wednesday. * Former Amazon sellers told an antitrust subcommittee the company released new products almost identical to their own and "killed" their sales. * Amazon has denied accusations of this behavior in the past. "We have a policy against using seller-specific data to aid our private-label business," Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos said in July. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-uses-seller-data-copy-products-alleges-house-antitrust-report-2020-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-uses-seller-data-copy...
- fleddr 4y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbxWGjQ2szQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbxWGjQ2szQ
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
> There used to be a time where in the case of Windows, people were wondering if its fair that they ship it with a calculator program. Now you can just use your massive platform and extend in every possible direction, seize secondary markets, nobody seems to care. Windows was artificially crippled by the DoJ ruling and not including a PDF reader by default. I, for one, like it when more is built into the OS by default.
4y ago

hirvi74 4y ago

Well on the optimistic side, they might buy your product or company, which they have done numerous times in the past like with Beats, Shazam, Siri, etc..

nine_k 4y ago

The only software worth developing for Apple machines is FOSS software, and one should not plan to make a living exclusively off it.

soraminazuki 4y ago

You’re comparing security improvements to sherlocking? That’s pure hyperbole.