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Apple wins points for being less evil than Google but I'm not going to abandon my Graphene OS phone for an iPhone anytime soon.

by mikece 4y ago

testfrequency 4y ago
- spanktheuser 4y ago
  I'd love if there was someplace we could go to test this assertion instead of relying on unbacked statements. I'm not saying it's untrue, but there is a lot of ambiguity in this claim as things stand. Are you referring to abuse of their monopoly power to censor speech? Abuse of same to compromise human rights? Nefarious trickery to subvert their own security model? Use of forced labor to assemble devices? Each is its own form of evil; the evidence for each ranges from beyond doubt to (afaik) non-existent; typing them out every time one wishes to discuss apple is daunting.
- mindslight 4y ago
  I'm as cynical as the next person - probably even more so. But, I have come to recognize that there is value in "pretending". It establishes what our societal values are, even if we don't live up to them. This allows us to critique the failures, and work towards a better world with fewer failings. So, is Apple actually going to back down from this and respect that computing devices should fully serve the interests of the owner? Perhaps not, and likely not to the point of allowing end user customization, software modification, etc. But I'd much rather live in the world where we say that Apple should do so, and they nominally agree. Where we keep holding their feet to the fire, by pointing to the hypocrisy when they reference lofty values. The alternative is to continue down the path where we just accept Surveillance Valley's expedient panopticons, and they move on to destroying the next societal value they find inconvenient.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway349902 4y ago
They needed to release pro-privacy news to balance out the bad press re: AirDrop in China.
jfghi 4y ago
Can you describe your phone and software setup? I’ve installed lineage before but lately have been a little stuck deciding on my next open phone. I’d like to be able to install microg. I don’t plan on necessarily using this as a daily phone all phone but have some medical automations that rely on Bluetooth and in a perfect world could have some water resistance or waterproofing.
- palata 4y ago
  I daily drive /e/ OS, I'm happy about it.
  - jfghi 4y ago
    Very interesting!
- kornhole 4y ago
  I use grapheneos.org on a Pixel phone. I have tried many AOSP variants. Graphene is hands down the most secure, private, and functional. Couple this with Nextcloud and you have a superior setup.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    I like grapheneOS and it's streets ahead from any other effort in the area. The problem i have with it is that it's hard/impossible for your average joe to install it. A small thing but big when it comes to privacy in general
    - kornhole 4y ago
      Compared to installing the other AOSP versions, I find Graphene install the easiest. Yes it does require following the instructions and setting some things right. If anyone is hesitant about doing that themselves, they could buy one preinstalled on Ebay or from nitrophone.
      - 4y ago
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
Can you set my mom up with a Graphene phone? And deal with the inevitable support? I think I’ll keep recommending Apple to 99% of people.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  Can you not do it, why do you need some random person on HN to do it?
  - jdironman 4y ago
    It was a rethorical question on their part. But they missed the point of a use case for one person doesn't mean a use case for everyone (his Mother). They were saying they want a plug and play option for family members cause they're the tech person in their lives it seems.
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      GrapheneOS has like step-by-step instructions that are pretty easy for almost anyone with maybe like a 6th grade comprehension to follow.
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        You expect the same people who don't even read the error popups they get to follow step-by-step instructions to install an alternative OS on their phone? I love your optimism :)
        encryptluks2 4y ago
        You mean a person with early onset Alzheimer's? Yeah, even with an iPhone they are going to get scammed by robocallers, family, and friends.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I think the better argument is the sibling question about why would you believe you can trust the Graphene developers more than you can trust Apple. Certainly Apple has far more to lose by being shady.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Why do you think you can trust Graphene OS devs?
- kornhole 4y ago
  GrapheneOS is a project rather than just a few devs. They have exhibited very high focus on security and peer review before commits. The code is FOSS and heavily audited by the most paranoid people like me. It is one of many AOSP projects with a relatively small user base. Therefore it is not a valuable target for compromise or coercion from threat actors. Apple on the other hand is the biggest corporation in the world beholden to governments, closed source, and with a massive user base.
  - e44858 4y ago
    If you enable automatic updates, you still have to trust that the GrapheneOS devs won’t push a malicious update to your phone, or sell that ability to someone else.
    - kornhole 4y ago
      Yes some trust of the project is required. Consider what would motivate them to do something malicious. They do not know who is using the OS since these phones are anonymous and the user base is relatively small. Neither targeted surveillance nor bulk collection is really possible because of this. The code is completely open source. With the most paranoid of us using and reviewing the code, any malicious code inserted would immediately kill the entire project. We can install and switch to another OS anytime we need to.
  - athrowaway12 4y ago
    Why do you think you can trust the hardware? What about E911, etc.?
    - kornhole 4y ago
      Yes we are using the same closed source hardware as 99% of people. Open source HW is ideal, but the options are currently very limited. I use rotating burner SIMs on occasions when I need cellular and never make calls with the SIM. The OS provides other SW mitigations for the HW such as no SW access to the device ID's, fine grained app firewall, and ability to turn off all cellular but enable WIFI.

Apple wins points for being less evil than Google but I'm not going to abandon my Graphene OS phone for an iPhone anytime soon.

by mikece 4y ago

Apple wins points for being less evil than Google but I'm not going to abandon my Graphene OS phone for an iPhone anytime soon.

testfrequency 4y ago

spanktheuser 4y ago
I'd love if there was someplace we could go to test this assertion instead of relying on unbacked statements. I'm not saying it's untrue, but there is a lot of ambiguity in this claim as things stand. Are you referring to abuse of their monopoly power to censor speech? Abuse of same to compromise human rights? Nefarious trickery to subvert their own security model? Use of forced labor to assemble devices? Each is its own form of evil; the evidence for each ranges from beyond doubt to (afaik) non-existent; typing them out every time one wishes to discuss apple is daunting.
mindslight 4y ago
I'm as cynical as the next person - probably even more so. But, I have come to recognize that there is value in "pretending". It establishes what our societal values are, even if we don't live up to them. This allows us to critique the failures, and work towards a better world with fewer failings. So, is Apple actually going to back down from this and respect that computing devices should fully serve the interests of the owner? Perhaps not, and likely not to the point of allowing end user customization, software modification, etc. But I'd much rather live in the world where we say that Apple should do so, and they nominally agree. Where we keep holding their feet to the fire, by pointing to the hypocrisy when they reference lofty values. The alternative is to continue down the path where we just accept Surveillance Valley's expedient panopticons, and they move on to destroying the next societal value they find inconvenient.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway349902 4y ago

They needed to release pro-privacy news to balance out the bad press re: AirDrop in China.

jfghi 4y ago

Can you describe your phone and software setup? I’ve installed lineage before but lately have been a little stuck deciding on my next open phone. I’d like to be able to install microg. I don’t plan on necessarily using this as a daily phone all phone but have some medical automations that rely on Bluetooth and in a perfect world could have some water resistance or waterproofing.

palata 4y ago
I daily drive /e/ OS, I'm happy about it.
- jfghi 4y ago
  Very interesting!
kornhole 4y ago
I use grapheneos.org on a Pixel phone. I have tried many AOSP variants. Graphene is hands down the most secure, private, and functional. Couple this with Nextcloud and you have a superior setup.
- x86x87 4y ago
  I like grapheneOS and it's streets ahead from any other effort in the area. The problem i have with it is that it's hard/impossible for your average joe to install it. A small thing but big when it comes to privacy in general
  - kornhole 4y ago
    Compared to installing the other AOSP versions, I find Graphene install the easiest. Yes it does require following the instructions and setting some things right. If anyone is hesitant about doing that themselves, they could buy one preinstalled on Ebay or from nitrophone.
    - 4y ago

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

Can you set my mom up with a Graphene phone? And deal with the inevitable support? I think I’ll keep recommending Apple to 99% of people.

encryptluks2 4y ago
Can you not do it, why do you need some random person on HN to do it?
- jdironman 4y ago
  It was a rethorical question on their part. But they missed the point of a use case for one person doesn't mean a use case for everyone (his Mother). They were saying they want a plug and play option for family members cause they're the tech person in their lives it seems.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    GrapheneOS has like step-by-step instructions that are pretty easy for almost anyone with maybe like a 6th grade comprehension to follow.
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      You expect the same people who don't even read the error popups they get to follow step-by-step instructions to install an alternative OS on their phone? I love your optimism :)
      - encryptluks2 4y ago
        You mean a person with early onset Alzheimer's? Yeah, even with an iPhone they are going to get scammed by robocallers, family, and friends.
rootusrootus 4y ago
I think the better argument is the sibling question about why would you believe you can trust the Graphene developers more than you can trust Apple. Certainly Apple has far more to lose by being shady.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Why do you think you can trust Graphene OS devs?

kornhole 4y ago
GrapheneOS is a project rather than just a few devs. They have exhibited very high focus on security and peer review before commits. The code is FOSS and heavily audited by the most paranoid people like me. It is one of many AOSP projects with a relatively small user base. Therefore it is not a valuable target for compromise or coercion from threat actors. Apple on the other hand is the biggest corporation in the world beholden to governments, closed source, and with a massive user base.
- e44858 4y ago
  If you enable automatic updates, you still have to trust that the GrapheneOS devs won’t push a malicious update to your phone, or sell that ability to someone else.
  - kornhole 4y ago
    Yes some trust of the project is required. Consider what would motivate them to do something malicious. They do not know who is using the OS since these phones are anonymous and the user base is relatively small. Neither targeted surveillance nor bulk collection is really possible because of this. The code is completely open source. With the most paranoid of us using and reviewing the code, any malicious code inserted would immediately kill the entire project. We can install and switch to another OS anytime we need to.
- athrowaway12 4y ago
  Why do you think you can trust the hardware? What about E911, etc.?
  - kornhole 4y ago
    Yes we are using the same closed source hardware as 99% of people. Open source HW is ideal, but the options are currently very limited. I use rotating burner SIMs on occasions when I need cellular and never make calls with the SIM. The OS provides other SW mitigations for the HW such as no SW access to the device ID's, fine grained app firewall, and ability to turn off all cellular but enable WIFI.