13 ms·

Seems to me that when you have a lot of forests, you eventually get forest fires. I don't see much way around this except regularly cutting down the trees. To

by rmah 4y ago

Seems to me that when you have a lot of forests, you eventually get forest fires. I don't see much way around this except regularly cutting down the trees. Too many people think that nature always finds an equilibrium (the "balance of nature" idea) when left alone. That's often not true. It often cycles between extremes.

culi 4y ago
Or... we could just let indigenous people do their cultural burns. Cultural burns were banned in California before California was even technically a state. It's moronic. These practices have been in place for thousands of years and much of the flora of at least California shows many signs of adaptation to these frequent, low-frequency burns. These types of burn practices reduce the amount of fuel for wildfires, help fight invasive species while promoting native species, produce charcoal that purify the waterways, protect the soils from the higher intensity fires that can often turn soil infertile, and increase the production of certain native foodcrops like acorns and blueberries. Indigenous people throughout the west coast are fighting for their rights to reclaim their stewardship role. Frankly, we should be paying them, not challenging them https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fire/indigenous-fire-practices-shape-our-land.htm https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fire/indigenous-fire-practices-... https://www.vox.com/22518592/indigenous-people-conserve-nature-icca https://www.vox.com/22518592/indigenous-people-conserve-natu...
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Is controlled burning some lost technology that only a modern druid can bring back? Or is it something states already do, and when they don't, it's for political reasons and various other concerns and even failings, not because there's nobody who knows how to steward the burn? I could even imagine that, for political reasons, some indigenous entity is the right hand for the job. But surely not because they possess some secret hereditary epistemology in 2022.
  - culi 4y ago
    Controlled burns are something firefighters are something many states are finally starting to recognize the importance of and providing funding for. However, given how critically understaffed firefighters are (e.g. California has ~3.5k fighterfighters total, down from 5k a few years ago) and how undertrained they are for a technique that has only recently been recognized for its importance, it's hard to imagine us having any success without the help of the indigenous communities that are fighting for the RIGHT to practice their cultural burns Besides that, prescribed burns and cultural burns often have different goals. Firefighters sole goal is to use up residual fuel sources to prevent larger fires. Cultural burning practices are often done with the aim of supporting the health of forests and other ecosystems. They're often much more narrowly scoped and frequent and require much more intimate knowledge of specific ecosystems and landscapes. Given that so many tribes have been displaced from their homeland, a lot of this knowledge is lost. But the goals of these communities are to revitalize landscapes with the intent of returning to them and make use of them. I think it's that fundamental difference in goals that tends to cultivate much more thorough ecological knowledge about specific landscapes often shown in cultural burning practices Hazard-reduction burns also simply use different techniques. They tend to rely on drip-torches to burn through control lines. These types of fires are controlled but still very hot and damaging to the soil. Compare that to indigenous experts that use a wide range of techniques to ensure the fires are as slow moving and cool as possible
    - justinwp 4y ago
      Having spent years working for USFS/NPS etc I disagree with your take that prescribed burns have significantly different goals. The scoping documents always identify numerous benefits to forest health and are created with input from specialists ranging from hydrologists to biologists and archeologists. The techniques are not necessarily relevant to fire intensity which is more a result of current conditions.
      - culi 4y ago
        Fair enough. I appreciate your experience, but I'd just like to point out that many indigenous communities find them to be rather different: > But there are important differences in philosophy and execution between prescribed burns and cultural burning in their approach to the land, Goode says. Agencies tend to focus on acreage and fuel reduction, relying upon natural features or previous fires to control potential spread. Forestry technicians may prioritize large-scale pile burning, for example, then leave when it is done.[0] > This style of burning is a planned and deliberate fire used within control lines to manage a Forest to reduce fuel loads for the safety of people/ townships/ assets and infrastructure. One of the main reasons is for wildfire suppression. [...] Cultural Fire practices are quite different, it is just one tool to help manage Country. Cultural Fire is used in unison with the landscape and the environment. Working with the Local First Nations community is essential. It is the local Mob who know their Country and their connection to Fire and knowledge of the local Forest. This knowledge is important to the way that fire is implemented. Using the local knowledge of reading Country an area will be selected to put in fire.[1] Additionally, you may be right that "current conditions" are a significant determiner to fire intensity, but I think that also falls into the same issue of the need for localized ecological and geographical knowledge: > Aboriginal people must be involved as they know when to burn, where to burn and how to execute a burn.[2] Keeping fires "cool" is particularly focused on by aboriginal burners: > The central idea of Cool Burns is fire management using a ‘cool’ fire. Night times and early mornings are ideal for these fires as nightly dew helps cool down the fire and the winds are often gentle. The practice involves lighting low fires in small areas on foot, with matches or, traditionally, with fire sticks. These fires are closely monitored, ensuring that only the underbrush is burnt. Cool Burns not only clear areas of land, they also ensure that seeds and nutrients in the soil are not baked and destroyed. In fact, these fires assist in changing vegetation structures by reducing the density of risk factor plants such as Bracken Fern or Casuarina which lead to extreme fuel loads.[3] [0] https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-indigenous-practice-good-fire-can-help-our-forests-thrive https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-indigenous-p... [1] https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/cultural-fire-practices/ https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/cultural-fire-... [2] https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/aboriginal-fire-management https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/abor... [3] https://www.watarrkafoundation.org.au/blog/aboriginal-fire-management-what-is-cool-burning https://www.watarrkafoundation.org.au/blog/aboriginal-fire-m...
- justinwp 4y ago
  The escaped prescribed burn in New Mexico this year shows how this really isn't practical today with the Wildfire Urban Interface and current population densities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calf_Canyon/Hermits_Peak_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calf_Canyon/Hermits_Peak_Fire
  - culi 4y ago
    Kind of a catch-22. The more prescribed burns we do the less likely it'll be that they get out of hand. Both because of less fuel out there in general and because of more experience managing these. Also if there was an easy way to quantify how much damage controlled burns have prevented vs the amount of damaged done by escaped burns like this I think we'd still find a net benefit Lastly, I'd like to point out the difference between cultural burn practices and the controlled burns often practiced by firefighting agencies. The former are much smaller, cooler, and slower burns whereas the latter tend to follow specific lines and cover larger distances
    - justinwp 4y ago
      > The former are much smaller, cooler, and slower burns Again this has no basis. The prescribed fire that caused this 300k+ acre fire was supposed to be 1204 acres. That 1204 is the boundary of the possible burn area and the actual area burnt with even moderate intensity was probably planned to be much smaller.
- rhapsodic 4y ago

by rmah 4y ago

culi 4y ago

Or... we could just let indigenous people do their cultural burns. Cultural burns were banned in California before California was even technically a state. It's moronic. These practices have been in place for thousands of years and much of the flora of at least California shows many signs of adaptation to these frequent, low-frequency burns. These types of burn practices reduce the amount of fuel for wildfires, help fight invasive species while promoting native species, produce charcoal that purify the waterways, protect the soils from the higher intensity fires that can often turn soil infertile, and increase the production of certain native foodcrops like acorns and blueberries. Indigenous people throughout the west coast are fighting for their rights to reclaim their stewardship role. Frankly, we should be paying them, not challenging them https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fire/indigenous-fire-practices-shape-our-land.htm https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fire/indigenous-fire-practices-... https://www.vox.com/22518592/indigenous-people-conserve-nature-icca https://www.vox.com/22518592/indigenous-people-conserve-natu...

hombre_fatal 4y ago
Is controlled burning some lost technology that only a modern druid can bring back? Or is it something states already do, and when they don't, it's for political reasons and various other concerns and even failings, not because there's nobody who knows how to steward the burn? I could even imagine that, for political reasons, some indigenous entity is the right hand for the job. But surely not because they possess some secret hereditary epistemology in 2022.
- culi 4y ago
  Controlled burns are something firefighters are something many states are finally starting to recognize the importance of and providing funding for. However, given how critically understaffed firefighters are (e.g. California has ~3.5k fighterfighters total, down from 5k a few years ago) and how undertrained they are for a technique that has only recently been recognized for its importance, it's hard to imagine us having any success without the help of the indigenous communities that are fighting for the RIGHT to practice their cultural burns Besides that, prescribed burns and cultural burns often have different goals. Firefighters sole goal is to use up residual fuel sources to prevent larger fires. Cultural burning practices are often done with the aim of supporting the health of forests and other ecosystems. They're often much more narrowly scoped and frequent and require much more intimate knowledge of specific ecosystems and landscapes. Given that so many tribes have been displaced from their homeland, a lot of this knowledge is lost. But the goals of these communities are to revitalize landscapes with the intent of returning to them and make use of them. I think it's that fundamental difference in goals that tends to cultivate much more thorough ecological knowledge about specific landscapes often shown in cultural burning practices Hazard-reduction burns also simply use different techniques. They tend to rely on drip-torches to burn through control lines. These types of fires are controlled but still very hot and damaging to the soil. Compare that to indigenous experts that use a wide range of techniques to ensure the fires are as slow moving and cool as possible
  - justinwp 4y ago
    Having spent years working for USFS/NPS etc I disagree with your take that prescribed burns have significantly different goals. The scoping documents always identify numerous benefits to forest health and are created with input from specialists ranging from hydrologists to biologists and archeologists. The techniques are not necessarily relevant to fire intensity which is more a result of current conditions.
    - culi 4y ago
      Fair enough. I appreciate your experience, but I'd just like to point out that many indigenous communities find them to be rather different: > But there are important differences in philosophy and execution between prescribed burns and cultural burning in their approach to the land, Goode says. Agencies tend to focus on acreage and fuel reduction, relying upon natural features or previous fires to control potential spread. Forestry technicians may prioritize large-scale pile burning, for example, then leave when it is done.[0] > This style of burning is a planned and deliberate fire used within control lines to manage a Forest to reduce fuel loads for the safety of people/ townships/ assets and infrastructure. One of the main reasons is for wildfire suppression. [...] Cultural Fire practices are quite different, it is just one tool to help manage Country. Cultural Fire is used in unison with the landscape and the environment. Working with the Local First Nations community is essential. It is the local Mob who know their Country and their connection to Fire and knowledge of the local Forest. This knowledge is important to the way that fire is implemented. Using the local knowledge of reading Country an area will be selected to put in fire.[1] Additionally, you may be right that "current conditions" are a significant determiner to fire intensity, but I think that also falls into the same issue of the need for localized ecological and geographical knowledge: > Aboriginal people must be involved as they know when to burn, where to burn and how to execute a burn.[2] Keeping fires "cool" is particularly focused on by aboriginal burners: > The central idea of Cool Burns is fire management using a ‘cool’ fire. Night times and early mornings are ideal for these fires as nightly dew helps cool down the fire and the winds are often gentle. The practice involves lighting low fires in small areas on foot, with matches or, traditionally, with fire sticks. These fires are closely monitored, ensuring that only the underbrush is burnt. Cool Burns not only clear areas of land, they also ensure that seeds and nutrients in the soil are not baked and destroyed. In fact, these fires assist in changing vegetation structures by reducing the density of risk factor plants such as Bracken Fern or Casuarina which lead to extreme fuel loads.[3] [0] https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-indigenous-practice-good-fire-can-help-our-forests-thrive https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-indigenous-p... [1] https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/cultural-fire-practices/ https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/cultural-fire-... [2] https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/aboriginal-fire-management https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/abor... [3] https://www.watarrkafoundation.org.au/blog/aboriginal-fire-management-what-is-cool-burning https://www.watarrkafoundation.org.au/blog/aboriginal-fire-m...
justinwp 4y ago
The escaped prescribed burn in New Mexico this year shows how this really isn't practical today with the Wildfire Urban Interface and current population densities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calf_Canyon/Hermits_Peak_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calf_Canyon/Hermits_Peak_Fire
- culi 4y ago
  Kind of a catch-22. The more prescribed burns we do the less likely it'll be that they get out of hand. Both because of less fuel out there in general and because of more experience managing these. Also if there was an easy way to quantify how much damage controlled burns have prevented vs the amount of damaged done by escaped burns like this I think we'd still find a net benefit Lastly, I'd like to point out the difference between cultural burn practices and the controlled burns often practiced by firefighting agencies. The former are much smaller, cooler, and slower burns whereas the latter tend to follow specific lines and cover larger distances
  - justinwp 4y ago
    > The former are much smaller, cooler, and slower burns Again this has no basis. The prescribed fire that caused this 300k+ acre fire was supposed to be 1204 acres. That 1204 is the boundary of the possible burn area and the actual area burnt with even moderate intensity was probably planned to be much smaller.
rhapsodic 4y ago