3 ms·

> Imagine I own a company and I already have a bunch of IP4. I upgrade my network equipment to IP4+, and then keep all my routing and firewall configs. Everythi

> Imagine I own a company and I already have a bunch of IP4. I upgrade my network equipment to IP4+, and then keep all my routing and firewall configs. Everything just works the same as before. Now I want to access IP4+, so I add a route entry for all the IPs above 255.255.255.255. It does not. Because 255.255.255.255 only covers 32 bits and "IP4+" is >32 bits. You'd still have to touch every rule to to tweak the mask. Oh, and your IP4+ idea already exists: > Addresses in this group consist of an 80-bit prefix of zeros, the next 16 bits are ones, and the remaining, least-significant 32 bits contain the IPv4 address. For example, ::ffff:192.0.2.128 represents the IPv4 address 192.0.2.128. A previous format, called "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address", was ::192.0.2.128; however, this method is deprecated.[61] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#IPv4-mapped_IPv6_addresses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#IPv4-mapped_IPv6_addresse... * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4291#section-2-5-5 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4291#section-2-5-5 You still need to upgrade bit of networking kit between the source and destination to understand "IP4+", and this (lack of) upgrading and enabling is what is hampering deployment. What makes you think that companies would have been willing to make the effort to deploy "IP4+" any more than IPv6?

jedberg 4y ago
> You'd still have to touch every rule to to tweak the mask. No you wouldn't. 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 and 1.0.0.0/8 are the same thing. If the rule says 1.0.0.0/8 then the router converts it to 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40. If you happen to have 1/8 as your rule, then an easy fix is to say ip4+ translates shorthand rules at ipv4 if the mask is under /32. > What makes you think that companies would have been willing to make the effort to deploy "IP4+" any more than IPv6? Because when they went to upgrade their router, as they often do every decade, it would just support IP4+ with no config changes on their end. They would pull their config from their old router and it would just work. Then they would discover they had IP4+ support and maybe start using it. The reason it is easier is because it's a small incremental change.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  > No you wouldn't. 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 and 1.0.0.0/8 are the same thing. I don't see why the CIDR would make a direct difference. Whether it's converting 1.0.0.0/8 to 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 or 2002:c000:0204::1.0.0.0/96 doesn't seem to matter to me. The only difference I can think of is local networks (10/8, 192.168/16, 172.16/12) but your suggestion would fail in the same way. Several compatibility systems for IPv6 exist. 6to4 is the most common one I've seen. It all works on a technical level until DNS gets involved. > Then they would discover they had IP4+ support and maybe start using it. If your business network is managed by "hey, this feature exists, let's see what happens if we turn it on" then your network admin needs to be more professional.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    > If your business network is managed by "hey, this feature exists, let's see what happens if we turn it on" then your network admin needs to be more professional. I think this is why you don't understand how IP4+ would be easier. 99% of companies make their "IT guy" manage the network. They aren't network professionals. They are mostly desktop professionals who also get forced to manage the network and firewall. Same with most schools -- they can't afford to hire network professionals. Sometimes they get lucky and someone is excited about learning networking, but that's not true in most cases. If they already have a bunch of IPv4 rules that some contractor wrote once, and they have a vague understand of how those rules work and why, they don't want to learn a new scheme or run 6to4 or anything else. They just want it to work by copying the old config and then maybe if they have time they can explore the new features of their new equipment.
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      If it's just "The IT guy", then IPv6 will work out of the box for outgoing traffic and will block all incoming traffic. This is why almost half of the USA is using IPv6 right now, it's just turned on by default. Hosting stuff is harder, but it's also that different. Theoretically, you can NAT IPv6 traffic to an IPv4 server inside your network no problem, but it's a pain and nobody really needs it anyway, so it's not widely used.
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  Do addresses have a variable length in your IPv4+ header?
convolvatron 4y ago
I still don't understand why they shifted from 0:: to ffff:: but point stands, ipv6 is exactly ipv4+, except yes, they did redo arp. I don't think its really that much better...but really? that's what turns something from great into awful?
- error503 4y ago
  > I still don't understand why they shifted from 0:: to ffff:: I think the most reasonable explanation is probably because they thought ::1 being loopback (otherwise it would have to go above 255.255.255.255) was more important (since it would exist as long as IPv6 does) than the transition encoding that presumably would die off over time.

jedberg 4y ago

> You'd still have to touch every rule to to tweak the mask. No you wouldn't. 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 and 1.0.0.0/8 are the same thing. If the rule says 1.0.0.0/8 then the router converts it to 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40. If you happen to have 1/8 as your rule, then an easy fix is to say ip4+ translates shorthand rules at ipv4 if the mask is under /32. > What makes you think that companies would have been willing to make the effort to deploy "IP4+" any more than IPv6? Because when they went to upgrade their router, as they often do every decade, it would just support IP4+ with no config changes on their end. They would pull their config from their old router and it would just work. Then they would discover they had IP4+ support and maybe start using it. The reason it is easier is because it's a small incremental change.

jeroenhd 4y ago
> No you wouldn't. 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 and 1.0.0.0/8 are the same thing. I don't see why the CIDR would make a direct difference. Whether it's converting 1.0.0.0/8 to 0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0/40 or 2002:c000:0204::1.0.0.0/96 doesn't seem to matter to me. The only difference I can think of is local networks (10/8, 192.168/16, 172.16/12) but your suggestion would fail in the same way. Several compatibility systems for IPv6 exist. 6to4 is the most common one I've seen. It all works on a technical level until DNS gets involved. > Then they would discover they had IP4+ support and maybe start using it. If your business network is managed by "hey, this feature exists, let's see what happens if we turn it on" then your network admin needs to be more professional.
- jedberg 4y ago
  > If your business network is managed by "hey, this feature exists, let's see what happens if we turn it on" then your network admin needs to be more professional. I think this is why you don't understand how IP4+ would be easier. 99% of companies make their "IT guy" manage the network. They aren't network professionals. They are mostly desktop professionals who also get forced to manage the network and firewall. Same with most schools -- they can't afford to hire network professionals. Sometimes they get lucky and someone is excited about learning networking, but that's not true in most cases. If they already have a bunch of IPv4 rules that some contractor wrote once, and they have a vague understand of how those rules work and why, they don't want to learn a new scheme or run 6to4 or anything else. They just want it to work by copying the old config and then maybe if they have time they can explore the new features of their new equipment.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    If it's just "The IT guy", then IPv6 will work out of the box for outgoing traffic and will block all incoming traffic. This is why almost half of the USA is using IPv6 right now, it's just turned on by default. Hosting stuff is harder, but it's also that different. Theoretically, you can NAT IPv6 traffic to an IPv4 server inside your network no problem, but it's a pain and nobody really needs it anyway, so it's not widely used.
pantalaimon 4y ago
Do addresses have a variable length in your IPv4+ header?

convolvatron 4y ago

I still don't understand why they shifted from 0:: to ffff:: but point stands, ipv6 is exactly ipv4+, except yes, they did redo arp. I don't think its really that much better...but really? that's what turns something from great into awful?

error503 4y ago
> I still don't understand why they shifted from 0:: to ffff:: I think the most reasonable explanation is probably because they thought ::1 being loopback (otherwise it would have to go above 255.255.255.255) was more important (since it would exist as long as IPv6 does) than the transition encoding that presumably would die off over time.