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I decided I wanted to get more deeply into kayaking this year, after having fantasized about becoming a regular kayaker for many years. Part of that process has

I decided I wanted to get more deeply into kayaking this year, after having fantasized about becoming a regular kayaker for many years. Part of that process has been to start taking classes with a certified instructor. Even from our level one class, I realize there was probably a lot that I should have known but didn't during my casual paddle-abouts. The video calls out reckless marketing by Oru, and after watching, I'm inclined to agree. I'm building a wooden kayak right now using plans by Nick Schade from Guillemot Kayaks, and by contrast, his plans include a dense couple of pages on safety beginning with: "Going out on the water in a small boat is always going to be risky. The waters of the United States kill about 100 paddlers every year. A trip out on the water should never be taken lightly. Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Wearing an appropriate PFD is the single easiest thing you can do for your own self-protection. Wearing the PFD is the key. Wearing an appropriate life jacket is comfortable and cheap insurance. Many paddlers die with the life jacket strap to the deck. They never have the time or ability to put it on after they've fallen in the water. It is extremely difficult to put on a PFD when you are already on in the water. When you need a life jacket it should already be on." I live in Seattle, which means I'll be paddling on Puget Sound. I really don't know how self rescue happens in those Oru kayaks, but I think I'd be pretty nervous in one without a wetsuit and PFD as a bare minimum. (One nit to pick about the video: it calls out a couple drinking wine in kayaks on Puget Sound—in actuality they were stupidly drinking wine, not on Puget Sound, but on Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound.)

adamredwoods 4y ago
I, too, am a kayaker in Seattle, and I agree water safety is paramount. Another sad story emphasizing PFD use is the drowning of Naya Rivera. They had gone in for a swim and the boat started drifting away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera
deleted 4y ago
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robryk 4y ago
> Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Car passengers rarely wear helmets, but don't most paddlers wear life jackets? When I see people out on the river they're almost always wearing them.
  - robryk 4y ago
    This is exactly my point. Without knowing how common {wearing helmets in cars, wearing PFDs in kayaks} is, the statements imply nothing about safety benefits of either, and yet that one was presented in a way that suggests that it does. What would be a non-misleading value to quote would be absolute change of risk of drowning (e.g. that a typical trip without a PFD costs X micromorts, while a typical trip with one Y micromorts). What would be less problematic (but still potentially misleading[1]) would be a relative risk reduction (wearing PFD makes you X times less likely to die). [1] Because it doesn't tell you anything about the original risk that you're lowering. E.g. helmets are a good protection against falling bricks: equally good at construction sites as when you're walking down the street. The only difference is that falling bricks are more likely on a construction site.
    - bananasbandanas 4y ago
      While it's shoddy statistics, at least in this case the implied effect seems to be real. According to these two sources [1][2] that just came up when I searched for this, prevalence of wearing life-jackets among kayakers appears to be ~78%. [1] https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/
twawaaay 4y ago
At least here (not US) when you take a course for skipper license you also have to show ability to swim, put on lifejacket while in water, tie bowline around your waist and couple other. The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it. People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise. A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.
MivLives 4y ago
Aren't the couple in Lake Union right next to wear water planes land too? Sorta hard to move quickly out of the way with an open glass of wine. I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  That's the seaplane pilots' responsibility, not the kayakers' - boaters have right of way. The seaplane takeoff/landing area is a relatively small patch at the south end of the lake, anyway; it's easy to not hang out there.
zardo 4y ago
> Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound Lake Union is colder from ~October through April. But yeah, you should be dressed for immersion, in July, that might be a PFD and swimsuit.

adamredwoods 4y ago

I, too, am a kayaker in Seattle, and I agree water safety is paramount. Another sad story emphasizing PFD use is the drowning of Naya Rivera. They had gone in for a swim and the boat started drifting away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

robryk 4y ago

> Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.

jefftk 4y ago
Car passengers rarely wear helmets, but don't most paddlers wear life jackets? When I see people out on the river they're almost always wearing them.
- robryk 4y ago
  This is exactly my point. Without knowing how common {wearing helmets in cars, wearing PFDs in kayaks} is, the statements imply nothing about safety benefits of either, and yet that one was presented in a way that suggests that it does. What would be a non-misleading value to quote would be absolute change of risk of drowning (e.g. that a typical trip without a PFD costs X micromorts, while a typical trip with one Y micromorts). What would be less problematic (but still potentially misleading[1]) would be a relative risk reduction (wearing PFD makes you X times less likely to die). [1] Because it doesn't tell you anything about the original risk that you're lowering. E.g. helmets are a good protection against falling bricks: equally good at construction sites as when you're walking down the street. The only difference is that falling bricks are more likely on a construction site.
  - bananasbandanas 4y ago
    While it's shoddy statistics, at least in this case the implied effect seems to be real. According to these two sources [1][2] that just came up when I searched for this, prevalence of wearing life-jackets among kayakers appears to be ~78%. [1] https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/

twawaaay 4y ago

At least here (not US) when you take a course for skipper license you also have to show ability to swim, put on lifejacket while in water, tie bowline around your waist and couple other. The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it. People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise. A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.

MivLives 4y ago

Aren't the couple in Lake Union right next to wear water planes land too? Sorta hard to move quickly out of the way with an open glass of wine. I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.

marssaxman 4y ago
That's the seaplane pilots' responsibility, not the kayakers' - boaters have right of way. The seaplane takeoff/landing area is a relatively small patch at the south end of the lake, anyway; it's easy to not hang out there.

zardo 4y ago

> Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound Lake Union is colder from ~October through April. But yeah, you should be dressed for immersion, in July, that might be a PFD and swimsuit.