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I'm not sure anyone thinks the Eiffel Tower is a masterpiece of beauty. More like a hyper-marketized symbol of Paris. And frankly the area would probably be nic

I'm not sure anyone thinks the Eiffel Tower is a masterpiece of beauty. More like a hyper-marketized symbol of Paris. And frankly the area would probably be nicer if it wasn't there at all.

pixl97 4y ago
Ah, but now you've delved off into opinions. I'd have to say the article itself is just a gigantic opinion piece. Ugly is the wrong word. Conformity is. If you consider conformity ugly, you will see it as ugly, if you do not, it will not be ugly. It's all subjective.
- keiferski 4y ago
  No, I don’t think it’s just “all subjective” or “that’s just your opinion, man”, but actually discussing aesthetic topics to a deeper level requires more expertise and has less immediate implications (than say, civil engineering) that people are just content to be intellectually lazy about it.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    oh right, "you are not an artist or an engineer therefore you can't understand my biased opinion that prevails" "it's ugly" is a very compelling argumentation i think there is a difference between the Eiffel Tower and the random office building in the middle of Roma
    - keiferski 4y ago
      No? I didn't say that my opinion was right, just that most people aren't willing to do the work in order to have a deeper discussion on the topic, so they just revert to relativism. I also didn't say the Eiffel Tower was ugly, I said most people don't think it's an exemplar of beauty, even those that like it.
  - cryptonector 4y ago
    "Leave opinion on aesthetics to the experts"?
    - keiferski 4y ago
      That's what functionally happens, yes. If most people revert to an opinion of "well that's just your opinion, it's all entirely subjective," then the people driving what actually gets valued are the ones that bother to educate themselves and be deemed as experts. To use an example: if a person in New York City said that "all the restaurants taste the same and it's all just subjective," would you buy a dining tour guide book from them? Or would you buy a book from someone that has made an effort to understand what makes a restaurant good or not?
      - pixl97 4y ago
        Good is multi-axis measure. I have been to 'good' restaurants. Excellent food, immaculate plating, perfect service. Immense cost. This is why I'm heavily discounting your opinion here, because there seems to be a massive amount of axises that are being neglected that make these products 'good'. Energy use per product, general product acceptance to the massive to lower per unit cost, product fungibility are all metrics that can subtract from both subjective and in some cases objective beauty. You could have the most objectively beautiful object in the world, but if I can't have it because it's too difficult to manufacture in bulk or too expensive, then subjectively I think your product isn't that great at all.
        keiferski 4y ago
        Of course good is a multi-axis measure. This is obvious. Do you really expect someone to write a full theory of aesthetics in a HN comment?
        cryptonector 4y ago
        Maybe not a full theory, but why not flesh things out a bit here, or else link to your papers or blog posts on the matter? Or if you're not an expert on aesthetics, maybe link to the work of someone who is.
cdrini 4y ago
Responded here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33896179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33896179

I'm not sure anyone thinks the Eiffel Tower is a masterpiece of beauty. More like a hyper-marketized symbol of Paris. And frankly the area would probably be nicer if it wasn't there at all.

pixl97 4y ago

Ah, but now you've delved off into opinions. I'd have to say the article itself is just a gigantic opinion piece. Ugly is the wrong word. Conformity is. If you consider conformity ugly, you will see it as ugly, if you do not, it will not be ugly. It's all subjective.

keiferski 4y ago
No, I don’t think it’s just “all subjective” or “that’s just your opinion, man”, but actually discussing aesthetic topics to a deeper level requires more expertise and has less immediate implications (than say, civil engineering) that people are just content to be intellectually lazy about it.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  oh right, "you are not an artist or an engineer therefore you can't understand my biased opinion that prevails" "it's ugly" is a very compelling argumentation i think there is a difference between the Eiffel Tower and the random office building in the middle of Roma
  - keiferski 4y ago
    No? I didn't say that my opinion was right, just that most people aren't willing to do the work in order to have a deeper discussion on the topic, so they just revert to relativism. I also didn't say the Eiffel Tower was ugly, I said most people don't think it's an exemplar of beauty, even those that like it.
- cryptonector 4y ago
  "Leave opinion on aesthetics to the experts"?
  - keiferski 4y ago
    That's what functionally happens, yes. If most people revert to an opinion of "well that's just your opinion, it's all entirely subjective," then the people driving what actually gets valued are the ones that bother to educate themselves and be deemed as experts. To use an example: if a person in New York City said that "all the restaurants taste the same and it's all just subjective," would you buy a dining tour guide book from them? Or would you buy a book from someone that has made an effort to understand what makes a restaurant good or not?
    - pixl97 4y ago
      Good is multi-axis measure. I have been to 'good' restaurants. Excellent food, immaculate plating, perfect service. Immense cost. This is why I'm heavily discounting your opinion here, because there seems to be a massive amount of axises that are being neglected that make these products 'good'. Energy use per product, general product acceptance to the massive to lower per unit cost, product fungibility are all metrics that can subtract from both subjective and in some cases objective beauty. You could have the most objectively beautiful object in the world, but if I can't have it because it's too difficult to manufacture in bulk or too expensive, then subjectively I think your product isn't that great at all.
      - keiferski 4y ago
        Of course good is a multi-axis measure. This is obvious. Do you really expect someone to write a full theory of aesthetics in a HN comment?
        cryptonector 4y ago
        Maybe not a full theory, but why not flesh things out a bit here, or else link to your papers or blog posts on the matter? Or if you're not an expert on aesthetics, maybe link to the work of someone who is.

cdrini 4y ago

Responded here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33896179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33896179