10 ms·

> But otherwise, the answer to most of the rest of the essay is: economics. Correct proportions cost nothing. And that's just for starters.

by krona 4y ago

crazygringo 4y ago
Were proportions mentioned in the article? I couldn't find it. But I'm intrigued now -- I thought I've heard all of the complaints about modern design, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that proportions have gotten worse. What specifically are you referring to? The only particularly noticeable thing I can think of is cars having gotten more "bulbuous" rather than sleek, but that's entirely due to crumple zones for safety.
- krona 4y ago
  This made me weep. Pythagorean ideals of proportion have existed for a millenia. See Ancient Greek/Roman architecture, gothic architecture (e.g. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00004-022-00591-2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00004-022-00591-2) and then go to visit an average modern city development and look at what modern architects consider to be, I don't know, the 'ideal' diameter of a non-supporting (almost entirely aesthetic) column, or the incongruous separation of windows. It's everywhere.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    Yes, Pythagorean ideals of proportion have been around for a long time, but they've also been essentially "debunked" in terms of aesthetic beauty. Kind of the same way that precious little of the music we listen to today follows Bach's prescriptions for counterpoint. They were a historical starting point that we've long since evolved away from, in favor of greater freedom and sophistication. Which isn't to say that the proportions of windows or columns are always ideal in today's architecture... but for every supposedly perfect historical Gothic cathedral, there are plenty of terribly-proportioned historical examples as well. Overall, I see no evidence of problems of proportion getting worse. Modern architects are just as aware of proportion as they've ever been. But thankfully they're freed from archaic notions such as e.g. exact golden ratios.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > Modern architects are just as aware of proportion as they've ever been. But thankfully they're freed from archaic notions such as e.g. exact golden ratios. It's strange then that these freed minds produce the ugliest buildings imaginable, en masse. And then pat each other on the backs and give each other awards for being beautiful. See, for example, this beautiful multiple-award winning waterfront in Copenhagen https://goo.gl/maps/RGpDAsREQhnsvdJu5 https://goo.gl/maps/RGpDAsREQhnsvdJu5 only matched by this beautiful Copenhagen Opera designed by award-winning architects https://goo.gl/maps/krhiU9Poh4Ahqu9v6 https://goo.gl/maps/krhiU9Poh4Ahqu9v6
      - chasd00 4y ago
        i was in Copenhagen last summer and walked by both. :shrug: I liked them just fine.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        The main problem with them isn't just that they are ugly. Or that they form no coherent whole. The main problem is that they completely ignore the place they are: the city, the country, the nation. It's the same haphazard collection of steel, concrete and glass with no rhyme or reason that you can find anywhere: from the third world countries [1] to right smack in the center of a medieval city. They are all devoid of any character (unless the character is "yet another soulless something"). Sorry for the TikTok link, but I can't get this from my mind: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFb14MTT/ https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFb14MTT/ [1] This is from my home town. https://maps.app.goo.gl/JnU2AphqF1nPyfnH7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/JnU2AphqF1nPyfnH7?g_st=ic The only reason it didn't win any awards is because no one wins awards for building ugly stuff in Moldova. Otherwise it's no different from Copenhagen Opera.
    - krona 4y ago
      > Overall, I see no evidence of problems of proportion getting worse. Except if you ask people, specifically the people who *have to work in, live in and around these buildings*, and given the choice, they will choose, time and time again, architectural styles which have fallen out of favour with the vandals. Some think beauty is simply in the eye of the beholder and it's the plebs who have a false consciousness. Perhaps you're one of them.

> But otherwise, the answer to most of the rest of the essay is: economics. Correct proportions cost nothing. And that's just for starters.

by krona 4y ago

> But otherwise, the answer to most of the rest of the essay is: economics. Correct proportions cost nothing. And that's just for starters.

crazygringo 4y ago

Were proportions mentioned in the article? I couldn't find it. But I'm intrigued now -- I thought I've heard all of the complaints about modern design, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that proportions have gotten worse. What specifically are you referring to? The only particularly noticeable thing I can think of is cars having gotten more "bulbuous" rather than sleek, but that's entirely due to crumple zones for safety.

krona 4y ago
This made me weep. Pythagorean ideals of proportion have existed for a millenia. See Ancient Greek/Roman architecture, gothic architecture (e.g. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00004-022-00591-2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00004-022-00591-2) and then go to visit an average modern city development and look at what modern architects consider to be, I don't know, the 'ideal' diameter of a non-supporting (almost entirely aesthetic) column, or the incongruous separation of windows. It's everywhere.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Yes, Pythagorean ideals of proportion have been around for a long time, but they've also been essentially "debunked" in terms of aesthetic beauty. Kind of the same way that precious little of the music we listen to today follows Bach's prescriptions for counterpoint. They were a historical starting point that we've long since evolved away from, in favor of greater freedom and sophistication. Which isn't to say that the proportions of windows or columns are always ideal in today's architecture... but for every supposedly perfect historical Gothic cathedral, there are plenty of terribly-proportioned historical examples as well. Overall, I see no evidence of problems of proportion getting worse. Modern architects are just as aware of proportion as they've ever been. But thankfully they're freed from archaic notions such as e.g. exact golden ratios.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > Modern architects are just as aware of proportion as they've ever been. But thankfully they're freed from archaic notions such as e.g. exact golden ratios. It's strange then that these freed minds produce the ugliest buildings imaginable, en masse. And then pat each other on the backs and give each other awards for being beautiful. See, for example, this beautiful multiple-award winning waterfront in Copenhagen https://goo.gl/maps/RGpDAsREQhnsvdJu5 https://goo.gl/maps/RGpDAsREQhnsvdJu5 only matched by this beautiful Copenhagen Opera designed by award-winning architects https://goo.gl/maps/krhiU9Poh4Ahqu9v6 https://goo.gl/maps/krhiU9Poh4Ahqu9v6
    - chasd00 4y ago
      i was in Copenhagen last summer and walked by both. :shrug: I liked them just fine.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        The main problem with them isn't just that they are ugly. Or that they form no coherent whole. The main problem is that they completely ignore the place they are: the city, the country, the nation. It's the same haphazard collection of steel, concrete and glass with no rhyme or reason that you can find anywhere: from the third world countries [1] to right smack in the center of a medieval city. They are all devoid of any character (unless the character is "yet another soulless something"). Sorry for the TikTok link, but I can't get this from my mind: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFb14MTT/ https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFb14MTT/ [1] This is from my home town. https://maps.app.goo.gl/JnU2AphqF1nPyfnH7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/JnU2AphqF1nPyfnH7?g_st=ic The only reason it didn't win any awards is because no one wins awards for building ugly stuff in Moldova. Otherwise it's no different from Copenhagen Opera.
  - krona 4y ago
    > Overall, I see no evidence of problems of proportion getting worse. Except if you ask people, specifically the people who *have to work in, live in and around these buildings*, and given the choice, they will choose, time and time again, architectural styles which have fallen out of favour with the vandals. Some think beauty is simply in the eye of the beholder and it's the plebs who have a false consciousness. Perhaps you're one of them.