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> Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. Honest answer: because currently my family and I hav

> Even if I put my capitalism hat on I don't understand why one would argue against socialized healthcare. Honest answer: because currently my family and I have access to above-average care at below-average wait times due to having money. This will go away necessarily due to math. So asking people who are lucky enough to be in this position to support socialized healthcare is tantamount to asking them to value the lives of randoms more than those of their family.

mikepurvis 4y ago
I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it, but from my point of view as another upper middle class person, my quality of life is also improved when my neighbours have the care they need. I don't want to have to live in a gated community so that I can shut out the lepers, and that extends to things like schools too— I want a public school system that gives every kid a decent chance of succeeding and that goes the extra mile to provide supports to those who face additional challenges at home. Even at the cost of a potential opportunity for my own kid. Most of the world is not a zero sum game: the solution to scarcity is to invest and make more of it, not to fight over the scraps. “I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.” — Stephen Jay Gould
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it I'll judge them for holding it. They want the benefits of a society, then they should support that society. Otherwise the message is that they're totally ok with having a slave labor class that drives their Uber for them and picks up their take out order for them, but fuck those people when they get sick.
  - dmitrygr 4y ago
    Yes, let me clarify: Fuck everyone and everything, if it extends the life of my family member by even a day. Judge me all you want
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      Will do, because you're literally a sociopath.
      - dmitrygr 4y ago
        If you value lives of others above yours as you claim to, why haven't you donated all your organs? You could save a dozen lives.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
        That's a false dichotomy. The way you phrase it, you would gladly kill a million people to give your grandma one extra day of life.
        dmitrygr 4y ago
        A million maybe not. But surely more than one. Now we’re just haggling over numbers.
        komali2 4y ago
        Normally one wouldn't "haggle lives" over hypothetical of how many you'd kill to save your grandma. Normal people would demand to know what kind of system is forcing them to sacrifice lives in order to save grandma, and why the solution isn't to instead dismantle that system.
        dmitrygr 4y ago
        Example: limited number of donor kidneys. What will you dismantle to solve this? Not everything can be solved by dismantling something. Some resources are truly limited.
komali2 4y ago
But if you're an American, it's more likely that you actually have average healthcare at higher than average wait times at much higher than average prices, which, unless you're extraordinarily rich, means your quality of life is diminished in other ways (lower quality of housing, maybe, or, idk, you have to retire later, whatever. Less vacations. Idk). And if you're extraordinarily rich the conversation is moot: you can always fly to wherever in the world for whatever private healthcare needs you have. > This will go away necessarily due to math Above misconception of the reality of the quality of American healthcare, but also, will it though? If your government cut your military budget by 80% and spent it all on universal healthcare, what has changed about your situation? More people at the doctor so longer lines? I guess you don't think the healthcare system would be expanded to meet needs? Well I suppose that's possible, but it seems very short sighted.

mikepurvis 4y ago

I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it, but from my point of view as another upper middle class person, my quality of life is also improved when my neighbours have the care they need. I don't want to have to live in a gated community so that I can shut out the lepers, and that extends to things like schools too— I want a public school system that gives every kid a decent chance of succeeding and that goes the extra mile to provide supports to those who face additional challenges at home. Even at the cost of a potential opportunity for my own kid. Most of the world is not a zero sum game: the solution to scarcity is to invest and make more of it, not to fight over the scraps. “I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.” — Stephen Jay Gould

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> I get this perspective, and it's no judgment on you specifically for holding it I'll judge them for holding it. They want the benefits of a society, then they should support that society. Otherwise the message is that they're totally ok with having a slave labor class that drives their Uber for them and picks up their take out order for them, but fuck those people when they get sick.
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  Yes, let me clarify: Fuck everyone and everything, if it extends the life of my family member by even a day. Judge me all you want
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    Will do, because you're literally a sociopath.
    - dmitrygr 4y ago
      If you value lives of others above yours as you claim to, why haven't you donated all your organs? You could save a dozen lives.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
        That's a false dichotomy. The way you phrase it, you would gladly kill a million people to give your grandma one extra day of life.
        dmitrygr 4y ago
        A million maybe not. But surely more than one. Now we’re just haggling over numbers.
        komali2 4y ago
        Normally one wouldn't "haggle lives" over hypothetical of how many you'd kill to save your grandma. Normal people would demand to know what kind of system is forcing them to sacrifice lives in order to save grandma, and why the solution isn't to instead dismantle that system.
        dmitrygr 4y ago
        Example: limited number of donor kidneys. What will you dismantle to solve this? Not everything can be solved by dismantling something. Some resources are truly limited.

komali2 4y ago

But if you're an American, it's more likely that you actually have average healthcare at higher than average wait times at much higher than average prices, which, unless you're extraordinarily rich, means your quality of life is diminished in other ways (lower quality of housing, maybe, or, idk, you have to retire later, whatever. Less vacations. Idk). And if you're extraordinarily rich the conversation is moot: you can always fly to wherever in the world for whatever private healthcare needs you have. > This will go away necessarily due to math Above misconception of the reality of the quality of American healthcare, but also, will it though? If your government cut your military budget by 80% and spent it all on universal healthcare, what has changed about your situation? More people at the doctor so longer lines? I guess you don't think the healthcare system would be expanded to meet needs? Well I suppose that's possible, but it seems very short sighted.