8 ms·

Oru Kayak’s reckless and irresponsible advertising

95 points by luu 4y ago

peatmoss 4y ago
I decided I wanted to get more deeply into kayaking this year, after having fantasized about becoming a regular kayaker for many years. Part of that process has been to start taking classes with a certified instructor. Even from our level one class, I realize there was probably a lot that I should have known but didn't during my casual paddle-abouts. The video calls out reckless marketing by Oru, and after watching, I'm inclined to agree. I'm building a wooden kayak right now using plans by Nick Schade from Guillemot Kayaks, and by contrast, his plans include a dense couple of pages on safety beginning with: "Going out on the water in a small boat is always going to be risky. The waters of the United States kill about 100 paddlers every year. A trip out on the water should never be taken lightly. Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Wearing an appropriate PFD is the single easiest thing you can do for your own self-protection. Wearing the PFD is the key. Wearing an appropriate life jacket is comfortable and cheap insurance. Many paddlers die with the life jacket strap to the deck. They never have the time or ability to put it on after they've fallen in the water. It is extremely difficult to put on a PFD when you are already on in the water. When you need a life jacket it should already be on." I live in Seattle, which means I'll be paddling on Puget Sound. I really don't know how self rescue happens in those Oru kayaks, but I think I'd be pretty nervous in one without a wetsuit and PFD as a bare minimum. (One nit to pick about the video: it calls out a couple drinking wine in kayaks on Puget Sound—in actuality they were stupidly drinking wine, not on Puget Sound, but on Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound.)
- adamredwoods 4y ago
  I, too, am a kayaker in Seattle, and I agree water safety is paramount. Another sad story emphasizing PFD use is the drowning of Naya Rivera. They had gone in for a swim and the boat started drifting away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- robryk 4y ago
  > Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Car passengers rarely wear helmets, but don't most paddlers wear life jackets? When I see people out on the river they're almost always wearing them.
    - robryk 4y ago
      This is exactly my point. Without knowing how common {wearing helmets in cars, wearing PFDs in kayaks} is, the statements imply nothing about safety benefits of either, and yet that one was presented in a way that suggests that it does. What would be a non-misleading value to quote would be absolute change of risk of drowning (e.g. that a typical trip without a PFD costs X micromorts, while a typical trip with one Y micromorts). What would be less problematic (but still potentially misleading[1]) would be a relative risk reduction (wearing PFD makes you X times less likely to die). [1] Because it doesn't tell you anything about the original risk that you're lowering. E.g. helmets are a good protection against falling bricks: equally good at construction sites as when you're walking down the street. The only difference is that falling bricks are more likely on a construction site.
      - bananasbandanas 4y ago
        While it's shoddy statistics, at least in this case the implied effect seems to be real. According to these two sources [1][2] that just came up when I searched for this, prevalence of wearing life-jackets among kayakers appears to be ~78%. [1] https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/
- twawaaay 4y ago
  At least here (not US) when you take a course for skipper license you also have to show ability to swim, put on lifejacket while in water, tie bowline around your waist and couple other. The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it. People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise. A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.
- MivLives 4y ago
  Aren't the couple in Lake Union right next to wear water planes land too? Sorta hard to move quickly out of the way with an open glass of wine. I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    That's the seaplane pilots' responsibility, not the kayakers' - boaters have right of way. The seaplane takeoff/landing area is a relatively small patch at the south end of the lake, anyway; it's easy to not hang out there.
- zardo 4y ago
  > Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound Lake Union is colder from ~October through April. But yeah, you should be dressed for immersion, in July, that might be a PFD and swimsuit.
JimtheCoder 4y ago
Wait until this guy see's speeding, weaving cars in automotive advertisements on TV...his head might explode at the recklessness and irresponsibility of it all.
- peatmoss 4y ago
  I'm pretty certain that most people who drive cars are licensed, and thus have a conceptual understanding that such driving is dangerous. In contrast, cold water paddling poses risks that can be unintuitive to normal, everyday people. People can easily die of cold in the waters where I live on on a sunny, 80-degree day.
- subpixel 4y ago
  Show me an auto ad of folks sharing a bottle of wine while driving or not wearing seatbelts or shoes. Those would never happen for the same reasons these irresponsible kayak ads should never happen.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Speeding is as dangerous as drink-driving, and at least if you don't wear a seatbelt you (probably) only harm yourself, not others.
- lm28469 4y ago
  Seems like he's real deep into a very specific topic, let him have it.
- yonaguska 4y ago
  As other commenters have pointed out, those ads never show people not wearing seatbelts or drinking, and they always have the "professional driver on a closed course disclaimer", fwiw. Now...the car ads via movies and video games, that's a whole other issue. Need For Speed is basically a car advertisement that you pay to play.
- zeitgeistcowboy 4y ago
  I agree that these ads are showing unsafe use. That said, you can only (mostly) hurt yourself with a kayak. A car can hurt other people in many ways. It's the same story with a bike.
felixgallo 4y ago
Oru could definitely improve its marketing here, but Oru kayaks (when used responsibly with appropriate gear in appropriate conditions) are nothing short of a quantum leap. Getting Oru kayaks has unlocked kayaking for many of my friends who would otherwise balk at having to install rails and pads, lift heavy kayaks on top of the car, tie it down correctly and effectively, and then unload it, paddle, load it again, unload it in the garage, and so on. With the Oru, they just throw it in the back, unfold it in about 8 minutes, enjoy the water, fold it back up in about 8 minutes, and that's it. If you have any friends who are not yet on the water, could not recommend them more, and I'll probably get Orus for myself from here on out.
- adamredwoods 4y ago
  I think they're fine, albeit with a PFD and paddling with a group. Personally, I own a Sea Eagle inflatable. It's allowed me to kayak in many amazing places with little setup. Stores nicely. I highly recommend one. https://www.seaeagle.com/ https://www.seaeagle.com/ Also note every single image each passenger is wearing a PFD.
  - derwiki 4y ago
    Loved my Sea Eagle, but it was hard to carry to alpine lakes. If you like the Sea Eagle, something like an Alpacka Raft might be up your alley.
- subpixel 4y ago
  The fact that they are appealing to people who know next-to-nothing about boating underscores the danger of their ads. The convenience is no excuse at all.
- ericgoesoutside 4y ago
  That's a pretty strong selling point. How close to 8 minutes is that in practice? (I see a review on moosejaw for the Bay ST where they mention having an eventual goal of assembling the thing in under 10 minutes) I owned a Folbot for a while, and while they advertised sub-20 minute assembly times, it was really more like 30, which involved a fair amount of cursing at and struggling in 90-degree weather with the skin that never really stretched out to fit the frame. Moving to a sit-on-top that I can just throw on top of the car in 10 minutes on each side of the trip was a big win for me.
illuminerdy 4y ago
I'm not really sure what the issue is. Advertising of any kind is notorious for having to suspend disbelief. Also, I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking. I'm pretty sure the first brochure or article you read about 'kayaking for beginners' is going to include the safety information that he thinks is lacking in the ad. In short, it's an advertisement. It's not a how-to.
- Encrust6221 4y ago
  > I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking I think he does, and I absolutely agree with him. I think the average person is much less likely to do research about stuff than you think, especially when the advertisements take such a casual tone and are completely devoid of any safety considerations whatsoever. It very much seems marketed towards affluent, casual users who are likely ignorant to the specific dangers of cold water.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    We go kayaking with the kids, and no we do not usr cold weather gear, wet suites and what not. But then, we do it in summer, on calm lakes or rivers, wearing floatation devices / life vests, everybody can swimm and we don't go out in bad weather (safety, but where is the fun getting wet and cold?). That being said, you don't go out in an open kayak on rough water in cold weather without proper gear. And you do not advertise that this ok.
    - vaidhy 4y ago
      Where do you kayak? I scuba dive in warm waters with a rash guard and shorts or maybe a 3mm vest. My dive gear for Seattle is a drysuit with multiple layers inside. Please do not underestimate the thermal conductivity of water. The bad news is that cold also slows your decision making leading to making more stupid decisions. In this particular case, they are showing people kayaking with shirts, shorts and a PFD around San Juan islands - notorious currents, water channels through a narrow inlet and water is really cold year around. If they had shown the same people with same gear in a Caribbean location, it would have been ok. And the other person kayaking in alpine lakes with a thick jacket is even more crazy. When (not if) you fall in, it gets water logged and pulls you down.
FpUser 4y ago
Not here to protect Oru but I think that one must be a total idiot to treat this type of advertising as any real life guide to activity.
- pge 4y ago
  Sadly, some people do. I am a regular whitewater kayaker, and I have had to help numerous people over the years that got a kayak (new or off craiglist or something) and drove out to the river and got in, with no research or training. They see pictures of people doing it, and think it looks like fun. They end up swimming in the middle of the river with a boat full of water that they can't handle. In the spring especially, when the air can be quite warm, but the water may still be 20 degrees colder, they get hypothermic quickly.
aaron_oxenrider 4y ago
People will always be reckless and I understand where this guy is coming from. I'm not surprised at all though. Why would he think a hip new company would be pushing safety over just having fun? New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety. Safety is extremely important and cold water kills, a lot. American Whitewater does a great job keeping track and you can see their stats here: https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/view/ https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/view/ No PFD is number 2 and I'm pretty sure a large portion of that flush drowning number can be partially attributed to cold.
- toss1 4y ago
  Just from skimming it, cold and wet-suits dry-suits are also mentioned in the video. I see no reason Oru couldn't have shown people wearing proper gear. Unless they think proper gear is uncool, so they're setting bad and dangerous examples, harming the sport overall, for their own profit.
- latchkey 4y ago
  > New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety. This is a big reason why I skipped buying a OneWheel. They look like so much fun and I live near the beach where it would be easy to ride them on the sand. That said, too many videos on YT about them just randomly stopping and people going flying. I'll wait for other companies give them some competition in order to drive out better products (and lower prices) in the long run.
  - closetohome 4y ago
    It's crazy how people only noticed that Onewheels are dangerous after a bunch of out of shape tech bros started buying them and treating them like toys. They don't randomly stop, they're just inherently dangerous unless operated correctly.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      Thanks for the huge laugh. "Unless operated correctly"... ha! Like that is something anyone can predict. "Tech bro" Casey [0] [1] just did the NY Marathon [2]... he's not out of shape. There are countless more videos on YT too [3] [4]. Heck, there are even little wheels you can buy to kind of try to help with the superman issues. Don't forget ghosting too. No thanks. Enjoy your toy. I hope you don't get hurt. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ay5M82IcUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ay5M82IcUI [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdK6fAX0bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdK6fAX0bc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lGLhhoIsNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lGLhhoIsNc [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3ddOMvBws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3ddOMvBws [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsTdgSVd0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsTdgSVd0E
swamp40 4y ago
> their floatation vests are loose > wearing shorts Oh, my. Wait till he sees the Youtube product review videos with girls in bikinis trying to compete for views.
xrayarx 4y ago
There is also the problem, that they continue to show the ads. They need to stop the ads.
pgm8705 4y ago
I definitely get the dangers of kayaking in extremely cold water. Whether or not ads should be held accountable to only promoting safe behavior is another conversation. Also, he claims it is illegal to drink alcohol while kayaking in all 50 states. I don't believe this is true. In most states you're allowed to drink and operate a boat, you just can't be intoxicated (usually 0.08% BAC).
tclancy 4y ago
Never want to get called out by a paddling group.
michaelwm 4y ago
Slightly off-topic: noticed something odd with Safari 16.1 (18614.2.9.1.12) running on macOS Ventura 13.0.1 (22A400) - The company's name "Oru" is not rendered in any Safari tabs or tooltip titles that are not the company's official website. All of these titles have "Oru" prepended in their HTML source title tags and DuckDuckGo results, but disappeared in the Safari tabs and tooltip titles: Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising - Paddlers' Place - Paddling.com: https://forums.paddling.com/t/oru-kayaks-reckless-and-irresponsible-advertising/114490 https://forums.paddling.com/t/oru-kayaks-reckless-and-irresp... https://i.imgur.com/K0XAa7Y.png https://i.imgur.com/K0XAa7Y.png Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising | Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33892108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33892108 https://i.imgur.com/Ai53Akb.png https://i.imgur.com/Ai53Akb.png Oru Kayak Review - A Money Waster Or A Smooth Ride? | Killer Kayaks!: http://killerkayaks.com/oru-bay-kayak/ http://killerkayaks.com/oru-bay-kayak/ https://i.imgur.com/cc49ujA.png https://i.imgur.com/cc49ujA.png Oru Lake Folding Kayak Review: Perfect For Urbanites And Beginners: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2022/08/23/oru-lake-folding-kayak-review/?sh=4b3282334f69 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2022/08... https://i.imgur.com/QCm0IXV.png https://i.imgur.com/QCm0IXV.png However, the words Oru Kayak are present on the company's official website: Oru Kayak - Oru Kayak: https://www.orukayak.com https://www.orukayak.com https://i.imgur.com/fLs9Qc9.png https://i.imgur.com/fLs9Qc9.png Was wondering if anyone else has this issue?
- keville 4y ago
  Safari has done this for a long time when you have multiple tabs with similar titles open. I think the intent is to increase the unique text within the tab titles when you are reading sites that have titles like "My Blog - Tuesday's Article" and "My Blog - Wednesday's Article"; otherwise these would both shorten to "My Blog - ..." as tab count increases, or as other tab width constraints come in to play. Granted, the heuristic for identifying common text between tabs isn't always great and can sometimes just result in titles looking cut-off.
teddyh 4y ago
Showing people in kayaks without life vests… that’s a paddlin’.
johnwheeler 4y ago
He’s equating kayaking gearless and alone in icy water with kayaking in a pool of sulphuric acid. Looked at in that light, it’s quite compelling!
- karaterobot 4y ago
  No, he's just saying that if you fall into 50 degree water in the middle of a six mile wide crossing without protection, and there's no one around to help you, there's a decent chance you're going to die. I hadn't seen them before, but those ads are crazy.
solardev 4y ago
I've had one of these, their smallest folding kayak, for a few years. On one hand, the Oru is incredibly unstable compared to a traditional kayak, whether a sit-on-top or a slide-in. The hull is made of flimsy plastic sheeting, is super light, and I doubt I could re-enter from the water if it ever flipped. I am not a great (or even good) kayaker, but I've done it (traditionally) a couple dozen or so times, taken kayak roll classes, learned wet exits and re-entries... more than a recreational renter would typically do, that's all I'm saying. I would never even ATTEMPT any of that in an Oru. I think it would just rip, if it hadn't already sunk by the time I got above water. If I capsize, I'm swimming to shore. If it's cold water, either I'm close enough to shore where I can walk out -- and that's only because I've swam a lot in cold waters -- or I'm not getting in. If there are rapids, I'm going to go somewhere else. If it's choppy, I'm definitely not getting in. I'm going to put on and fit my PFD before getting in. But on the other hand, despite all those limitations, the Oru is my favorite watercraft ever. In the summer it just lives in my car's roof box, and we pull it out every other weekend or so, along with an inflatable paddleboard. We seek out gentle streams and serene mountain lakes -- of which there are plenty near us, and the Oru makes it possible to enjoy those bodies of water without needing to be rich and having a garage (a rarity in these parts) to store the kayak, specialized car racks, the upper body strength to lift it up, etc. For me, it turned kayaking from a once-a-year activity to multiple times a month. Could Oru improve their safety signaling in the ads? Sure. But I look at those ads and think, "models being models". If you're going ocean kayaking next to a glacier with a bottle of wine, a puffy, and no rescue plan... I mean... exaggerated advertising or not, you're probably pre-selected for evolutionary culling anyway. No safety warning is going to save you. There will always be thrill-seekers and risk-takers who get off on doing stupidly dangerous things, especially in outdoor sports. But to a reasonable person, looking at a generic ad like that, I bet they're just thinking, "that looks fun but cold, maybe I'll try that somewhere warmer and safer". A reasonable person also wouldn't look at a car ad and then go buy and drive one at 100mph around tight mountain curves. At the end of the day, at some point we have to let adults be adults and take responsibility for their decisions. Part of the joy of the outdoors is having freedom to roam as you wish, to be relatively unconstrained by the rules of man. It does not, however, absolve you from the laws of nature. Whether you're kayaking questionable waters, skiing sketchy slopes, hiking alone for days, free solo climbing, swimming open waters... you have that freedom, but you're taking your life into your hands. Death or injury is always a possibility... an eventuality, even. With many outdoor sports, if you go unprepared, you're risking not only your own life but that of the search and rescue team who's going to try to find you when you disappear. With kayaking, if you go under, you have mere minutes to survive or die. Take basic safety precautions so you're not putting yourself or anyone else at unnecessary risk. But beyond that, it is your right and your prerogative if you want go out there and do things. If you bring a beer with you, that's your choice... you're an adult. Don't be stupid, use some common sense, and take some basic precautions. But also don't let generic warnings scare you away from the things you love. Many things are worth the risks.
deleted 4y ago
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kazinator 4y ago
Here is a nice ad slogan: "Oru: we took the 'bore' out of Oboreru!"
Gordonjcp 4y ago
So what's actually wrong with their adverts, for those of us who can't understand a long video in a thick foreign accent?
timonoko 4y ago
Kayak scene is full self-appointed safety officers. At one time they tried to legally force using the sprayhood at all times (in Sweden). They managed to do that with life vests already. In Americas there is somekind of HitlerJungendish youth organization with butch women as leaders. "Outward Bound"? Anyways at one time I found one such going trough my stuff near Seattle. "Safety Inspection" she said.

95 points by luu 4y ago

I decided I wanted to get more deeply into kayaking this year, after having fantasized about becoming a regular kayaker for many years. Part of that process has been to start taking classes with a certified instructor. Even from our level one class, I realize there was probably a lot that I should have known but didn't during my casual paddle-abouts. The video calls out reckless marketing by Oru, and after watching, I'm inclined to agree. I'm building a wooden kayak right now using plans by Nick Schade from Guillemot Kayaks, and by contrast, his plans include a dense couple of pages on safety beginning with: "Going out on the water in a small boat is always going to be risky. The waters of the United States kill about 100 paddlers every year. A trip out on the water should never be taken lightly. Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Wearing an appropriate PFD is the single easiest thing you can do for your own self-protection. Wearing the PFD is the key. Wearing an appropriate life jacket is comfortable and cheap insurance. Many paddlers die with the life jacket strap to the deck. They never have the time or ability to put it on after they've fallen in the water. It is extremely difficult to put on a PFD when you are already on in the water. When you need a life jacket it should already be on." I live in Seattle, which means I'll be paddling on Puget Sound. I really don't know how self rescue happens in those Oru kayaks, but I think I'd be pretty nervous in one without a wetsuit and PFD as a bare minimum. (One nit to pick about the video: it calls out a couple drinking wine in kayaks on Puget Sound—in actuality they were stupidly drinking wine, not on Puget Sound, but on Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound.)

adamredwoods 4y ago
I, too, am a kayaker in Seattle, and I agree water safety is paramount. Another sad story emphasizing PFD use is the drowning of Naya Rivera. They had gone in for a swim and the boat started drifting away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera
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robryk 4y ago
> Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Car passengers rarely wear helmets, but don't most paddlers wear life jackets? When I see people out on the river they're almost always wearing them.
  - robryk 4y ago
    This is exactly my point. Without knowing how common {wearing helmets in cars, wearing PFDs in kayaks} is, the statements imply nothing about safety benefits of either, and yet that one was presented in a way that suggests that it does. What would be a non-misleading value to quote would be absolute change of risk of drowning (e.g. that a typical trip without a PFD costs X micromorts, while a typical trip with one Y micromorts). What would be less problematic (but still potentially misleading[1]) would be a relative risk reduction (wearing PFD makes you X times less likely to die). [1] Because it doesn't tell you anything about the original risk that you're lowering. E.g. helmets are a good protection against falling bricks: equally good at construction sites as when you're walking down the street. The only difference is that falling bricks are more likely on a construction site.
    - bananasbandanas 4y ago
      While it's shoddy statistics, at least in this case the implied effect seems to be real. According to these two sources [1][2] that just came up when I searched for this, prevalence of wearing life-jackets among kayakers appears to be ~78%. [1] https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/203 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931488/
twawaaay 4y ago
At least here (not US) when you take a course for skipper license you also have to show ability to swim, put on lifejacket while in water, tie bowline around your waist and couple other. The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it. People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise. A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.
MivLives 4y ago
Aren't the couple in Lake Union right next to wear water planes land too? Sorta hard to move quickly out of the way with an open glass of wine. I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  That's the seaplane pilots' responsibility, not the kayakers' - boaters have right of way. The seaplane takeoff/landing area is a relatively small patch at the south end of the lake, anyway; it's easy to not hang out there.
zardo 4y ago
> Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound Lake Union is colder from ~October through April. But yeah, you should be dressed for immersion, in July, that might be a PFD and swimsuit.

JimtheCoder 4y ago

Wait until this guy see's speeding, weaving cars in automotive advertisements on TV...his head might explode at the recklessness and irresponsibility of it all.

peatmoss 4y ago
I'm pretty certain that most people who drive cars are licensed, and thus have a conceptual understanding that such driving is dangerous. In contrast, cold water paddling poses risks that can be unintuitive to normal, everyday people. People can easily die of cold in the waters where I live on on a sunny, 80-degree day.
subpixel 4y ago
Show me an auto ad of folks sharing a bottle of wine while driving or not wearing seatbelts or shoes. Those would never happen for the same reasons these irresponsible kayak ads should never happen.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Speeding is as dangerous as drink-driving, and at least if you don't wear a seatbelt you (probably) only harm yourself, not others.
lm28469 4y ago
Seems like he's real deep into a very specific topic, let him have it.
yonaguska 4y ago
As other commenters have pointed out, those ads never show people not wearing seatbelts or drinking, and they always have the "professional driver on a closed course disclaimer", fwiw. Now...the car ads via movies and video games, that's a whole other issue. Need For Speed is basically a car advertisement that you pay to play.
zeitgeistcowboy 4y ago
I agree that these ads are showing unsafe use. That said, you can only (mostly) hurt yourself with a kayak. A car can hurt other people in many ways. It's the same story with a bike.

felixgallo 4y ago

Oru could definitely improve its marketing here, but Oru kayaks (when used responsibly with appropriate gear in appropriate conditions) are nothing short of a quantum leap. Getting Oru kayaks has unlocked kayaking for many of my friends who would otherwise balk at having to install rails and pads, lift heavy kayaks on top of the car, tie it down correctly and effectively, and then unload it, paddle, load it again, unload it in the garage, and so on. With the Oru, they just throw it in the back, unfold it in about 8 minutes, enjoy the water, fold it back up in about 8 minutes, and that's it. If you have any friends who are not yet on the water, could not recommend them more, and I'll probably get Orus for myself from here on out.

adamredwoods 4y ago
I think they're fine, albeit with a PFD and paddling with a group. Personally, I own a Sea Eagle inflatable. It's allowed me to kayak in many amazing places with little setup. Stores nicely. I highly recommend one. https://www.seaeagle.com/ https://www.seaeagle.com/ Also note every single image each passenger is wearing a PFD.
- derwiki 4y ago
  Loved my Sea Eagle, but it was hard to carry to alpine lakes. If you like the Sea Eagle, something like an Alpacka Raft might be up your alley.
subpixel 4y ago
The fact that they are appealing to people who know next-to-nothing about boating underscores the danger of their ads. The convenience is no excuse at all.
ericgoesoutside 4y ago
That's a pretty strong selling point. How close to 8 minutes is that in practice? (I see a review on moosejaw for the Bay ST where they mention having an eventual goal of assembling the thing in under 10 minutes) I owned a Folbot for a while, and while they advertised sub-20 minute assembly times, it was really more like 30, which involved a fair amount of cursing at and struggling in 90-degree weather with the skin that never really stretched out to fit the frame. Moving to a sit-on-top that I can just throw on top of the car in 10 minutes on each side of the trip was a big win for me.

illuminerdy 4y ago

I'm not really sure what the issue is. Advertising of any kind is notorious for having to suspend disbelief. Also, I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking. I'm pretty sure the first brochure or article you read about 'kayaking for beginners' is going to include the safety information that he thinks is lacking in the ad. In short, it's an advertisement. It's not a how-to.

Encrust6221 4y ago
> I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking I think he does, and I absolutely agree with him. I think the average person is much less likely to do research about stuff than you think, especially when the advertisements take such a casual tone and are completely devoid of any safety considerations whatsoever. It very much seems marketed towards affluent, casual users who are likely ignorant to the specific dangers of cold water.
- hef19898 4y ago
  We go kayaking with the kids, and no we do not usr cold weather gear, wet suites and what not. But then, we do it in summer, on calm lakes or rivers, wearing floatation devices / life vests, everybody can swimm and we don't go out in bad weather (safety, but where is the fun getting wet and cold?). That being said, you don't go out in an open kayak on rough water in cold weather without proper gear. And you do not advertise that this ok.
  - vaidhy 4y ago
    Where do you kayak? I scuba dive in warm waters with a rash guard and shorts or maybe a 3mm vest. My dive gear for Seattle is a drysuit with multiple layers inside. Please do not underestimate the thermal conductivity of water. The bad news is that cold also slows your decision making leading to making more stupid decisions. In this particular case, they are showing people kayaking with shirts, shorts and a PFD around San Juan islands - notorious currents, water channels through a narrow inlet and water is really cold year around. If they had shown the same people with same gear in a Caribbean location, it would have been ok. And the other person kayaking in alpine lakes with a thick jacket is even more crazy. When (not if) you fall in, it gets water logged and pulls you down.

FpUser 4y ago

Not here to protect Oru but I think that one must be a total idiot to treat this type of advertising as any real life guide to activity.

pge 4y ago
Sadly, some people do. I am a regular whitewater kayaker, and I have had to help numerous people over the years that got a kayak (new or off craiglist or something) and drove out to the river and got in, with no research or training. They see pictures of people doing it, and think it looks like fun. They end up swimming in the middle of the river with a boat full of water that they can't handle. In the spring especially, when the air can be quite warm, but the water may still be 20 degrees colder, they get hypothermic quickly.

aaron_oxenrider 4y ago

People will always be reckless and I understand where this guy is coming from. I'm not surprised at all though. Why would he think a hip new company would be pushing safety over just having fun? New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety. Safety is extremely important and cold water kills, a lot. American Whitewater does a great job keeping track and you can see their stats here: https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/view/ https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/view/ No PFD is number 2 and I'm pretty sure a large portion of that flush drowning number can be partially attributed to cold.

toss1 4y ago
Just from skimming it, cold and wet-suits dry-suits are also mentioned in the video. I see no reason Oru couldn't have shown people wearing proper gear. Unless they think proper gear is uncool, so they're setting bad and dangerous examples, harming the sport overall, for their own profit.
latchkey 4y ago
> New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety. This is a big reason why I skipped buying a OneWheel. They look like so much fun and I live near the beach where it would be easy to ride them on the sand. That said, too many videos on YT about them just randomly stopping and people going flying. I'll wait for other companies give them some competition in order to drive out better products (and lower prices) in the long run.
- closetohome 4y ago
  It's crazy how people only noticed that Onewheels are dangerous after a bunch of out of shape tech bros started buying them and treating them like toys. They don't randomly stop, they're just inherently dangerous unless operated correctly.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Thanks for the huge laugh. "Unless operated correctly"... ha! Like that is something anyone can predict. "Tech bro" Casey [0] [1] just did the NY Marathon [2]... he's not out of shape. There are countless more videos on YT too [3] [4]. Heck, there are even little wheels you can buy to kind of try to help with the superman issues. Don't forget ghosting too. No thanks. Enjoy your toy. I hope you don't get hurt. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ay5M82IcUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ay5M82IcUI [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdK6fAX0bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdK6fAX0bc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lGLhhoIsNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lGLhhoIsNc [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3ddOMvBws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3ddOMvBws [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsTdgSVd0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsTdgSVd0E

swamp40 4y ago

> their floatation vests are loose > wearing shorts Oh, my. Wait till he sees the Youtube product review videos with girls in bikinis trying to compete for views.

xrayarx 4y ago

There is also the problem, that they continue to show the ads. They need to stop the ads.

pgm8705 4y ago

I definitely get the dangers of kayaking in extremely cold water. Whether or not ads should be held accountable to only promoting safe behavior is another conversation. Also, he claims it is illegal to drink alcohol while kayaking in all 50 states. I don't believe this is true. In most states you're allowed to drink and operate a boat, you just can't be intoxicated (usually 0.08% BAC).

tclancy 4y ago

Never want to get called out by a paddling group.

michaelwm 4y ago

Slightly off-topic: noticed something odd with Safari 16.1 (18614.2.9.1.12) running on macOS Ventura 13.0.1 (22A400) - The company's name "Oru" is not rendered in any Safari tabs or tooltip titles that are not the company's official website. All of these titles have "Oru" prepended in their HTML source title tags and DuckDuckGo results, but disappeared in the Safari tabs and tooltip titles: Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising - Paddlers' Place - Paddling.com: https://forums.paddling.com/t/oru-kayaks-reckless-and-irresponsible-advertising/114490 https://forums.paddling.com/t/oru-kayaks-reckless-and-irresp... https://i.imgur.com/K0XAa7Y.png https://i.imgur.com/K0XAa7Y.png Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising | Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33892108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33892108 https://i.imgur.com/Ai53Akb.png https://i.imgur.com/Ai53Akb.png Oru Kayak Review - A Money Waster Or A Smooth Ride? | Killer Kayaks!: http://killerkayaks.com/oru-bay-kayak/ http://killerkayaks.com/oru-bay-kayak/ https://i.imgur.com/cc49ujA.png https://i.imgur.com/cc49ujA.png Oru Lake Folding Kayak Review: Perfect For Urbanites And Beginners: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2022/08/23/oru-lake-folding-kayak-review/?sh=4b3282334f69 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2022/08... https://i.imgur.com/QCm0IXV.png https://i.imgur.com/QCm0IXV.png However, the words Oru Kayak are present on the company's official website: Oru Kayak - Oru Kayak: https://www.orukayak.com https://www.orukayak.com https://i.imgur.com/fLs9Qc9.png https://i.imgur.com/fLs9Qc9.png Was wondering if anyone else has this issue?

keville 4y ago
Safari has done this for a long time when you have multiple tabs with similar titles open. I think the intent is to increase the unique text within the tab titles when you are reading sites that have titles like "My Blog - Tuesday's Article" and "My Blog - Wednesday's Article"; otherwise these would both shorten to "My Blog - ..." as tab count increases, or as other tab width constraints come in to play. Granted, the heuristic for identifying common text between tabs isn't always great and can sometimes just result in titles looking cut-off.

teddyh 4y ago

Showing people in kayaks without life vests… that’s a paddlin’.

johnwheeler 4y ago

He’s equating kayaking gearless and alone in icy water with kayaking in a pool of sulphuric acid. Looked at in that light, it’s quite compelling!

karaterobot 4y ago
No, he's just saying that if you fall into 50 degree water in the middle of a six mile wide crossing without protection, and there's no one around to help you, there's a decent chance you're going to die. I hadn't seen them before, but those ads are crazy.

solardev 4y ago

I've had one of these, their smallest folding kayak, for a few years. On one hand, the Oru is incredibly unstable compared to a traditional kayak, whether a sit-on-top or a slide-in. The hull is made of flimsy plastic sheeting, is super light, and I doubt I could re-enter from the water if it ever flipped. I am not a great (or even good) kayaker, but I've done it (traditionally) a couple dozen or so times, taken kayak roll classes, learned wet exits and re-entries... more than a recreational renter would typically do, that's all I'm saying. I would never even ATTEMPT any of that in an Oru. I think it would just rip, if it hadn't already sunk by the time I got above water. If I capsize, I'm swimming to shore. If it's cold water, either I'm close enough to shore where I can walk out -- and that's only because I've swam a lot in cold waters -- or I'm not getting in. If there are rapids, I'm going to go somewhere else. If it's choppy, I'm definitely not getting in. I'm going to put on and fit my PFD before getting in. But on the other hand, despite all those limitations, the Oru is my favorite watercraft ever. In the summer it just lives in my car's roof box, and we pull it out every other weekend or so, along with an inflatable paddleboard. We seek out gentle streams and serene mountain lakes -- of which there are plenty near us, and the Oru makes it possible to enjoy those bodies of water without needing to be rich and having a garage (a rarity in these parts) to store the kayak, specialized car racks, the upper body strength to lift it up, etc. For me, it turned kayaking from a once-a-year activity to multiple times a month. Could Oru improve their safety signaling in the ads? Sure. But I look at those ads and think, "models being models". If you're going ocean kayaking next to a glacier with a bottle of wine, a puffy, and no rescue plan... I mean... exaggerated advertising or not, you're probably pre-selected for evolutionary culling anyway. No safety warning is going to save you. There will always be thrill-seekers and risk-takers who get off on doing stupidly dangerous things, especially in outdoor sports. But to a reasonable person, looking at a generic ad like that, I bet they're just thinking, "that looks fun but cold, maybe I'll try that somewhere warmer and safer". A reasonable person also wouldn't look at a car ad and then go buy and drive one at 100mph around tight mountain curves. At the end of the day, at some point we have to let adults be adults and take responsibility for their decisions. Part of the joy of the outdoors is having freedom to roam as you wish, to be relatively unconstrained by the rules of man. It does not, however, absolve you from the laws of nature. Whether you're kayaking questionable waters, skiing sketchy slopes, hiking alone for days, free solo climbing, swimming open waters... you have that freedom, but you're taking your life into your hands. Death or injury is always a possibility... an eventuality, even. With many outdoor sports, if you go unprepared, you're risking not only your own life but that of the search and rescue team who's going to try to find you when you disappear. With kayaking, if you go under, you have mere minutes to survive or die. Take basic safety precautions so you're not putting yourself or anyone else at unnecessary risk. But beyond that, it is your right and your prerogative if you want go out there and do things. If you bring a beer with you, that's your choice... you're an adult. Don't be stupid, use some common sense, and take some basic precautions. But also don't let generic warnings scare you away from the things you love. Many things are worth the risks.

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kazinator 4y ago

Here is a nice ad slogan: "Oru: we took the 'bore' out of Oboreru!"

Gordonjcp 4y ago

So what's actually wrong with their adverts, for those of us who can't understand a long video in a thick foreign accent?

timonoko 4y ago

Kayak scene is full self-appointed safety officers. At one time they tried to legally force using the sprayhood at all times (in Sweden). They managed to do that with life vests already. In Americas there is somekind of HitlerJungendish youth organization with butch women as leaders. "Outward Bound"? Anyways at one time I found one such going trough my stuff near Seattle. "Safety Inspection" she said.