4 ms·

I'm OP, and I did not appreciate this rebuttal, and consider it alarmist and terrible. I responded here if you want to take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com

I'm OP, and I did not appreciate this rebuttal, and consider it alarmist and terrible. I responded here if you want to take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710 To your point, though, there is an explanation there too. The word is complex and full of many intersecting axis of considerations. For example - it can be logically consistent to be both pro renewable energy investment of all kinds, but also be wary of nuclear power, and the long-term consequences to our world if we expand investment into it. It's not a simple solution. Turning off nuclear power plants to burn coal or gas is clearly terrible. Not investing in solar/wind/etc because nuclear plants seem better in teh short term is also not great. Likewise, the reality is that our society DOES contain strong gender norms. You might think we don't because women make up >50% of colleges, are in the professional world, and might believe other concepts like the wage gap are exaggerated. And those can be all true. But our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). There are people who are working on "dismantling the patriarchy" and associated systems of capitalist economic systems, and other things that may or may not be reasonable, may or may not be possible, and may or may not make things worse. But the point is that some of those people are transgender. And some are not. It's an independent axis. Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. Now, if you claim that a society should be more tolerant of being male and exhibiting feminine traits (and vice versa), I would agree with you. If you claimed that IF our society became that, there would likely be fewer transgender people, I would also theorize that is true. And if you believe that is a virtuous thing to pursue, let's both do so. But it's not a process that we can achieve overnight, and requires the support and progress of many others. Things have been progressing, but very slowly. Meanwhile, we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Why deny them this?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). Some things are pointlessly gendered, like pink/blue, or puffy sleeves, but others absolutely have a purpose, like single-sex spaces. > Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. The problem is that trying to tear down GENDER norms by living as the other SEX. You're interfering with other people's spaces to culture-jam the patriarchy and they need those spaces for safety, but you're also conflating the stereotypes of a sex with the sex itself. > we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Most or all of that evidence is as flawed as the detransitioners study. Everyone is afraid to do any actual research in this area. That said there's ample evidence in every other area of mental health that says you should not affirm falsehood. > Why deny them this? They're denied nothing up until their gender presentation interferes with someone else's sex-based rights. Dress how you will, live how you will.
- deanCommie 4y ago
  single-sex spaces are problematic AF. What about intersex individuals? What about gay or lesbian individuals? What about masculine-presenting individuals? All have always challenged the clean separation of single-sex spaces, and are mostly unnecessary. To put an example, I agree that there should be rape counselling that are exclusive for women. Women should feel comfortable in that space without men present. But those women also need to understand that even if trans people didn't exist, they need to share that space with 1) non-femme presenting women, 2) non-straight women, 3) intersex individuals. Adding transgender women to the list does not meaningfully destroy the validity of these spaces or ruin them for CIS women. They were never as black-and-white-biology-based as the hateful anti-trans bigots claim they are today. Are there men attempting to infiltrate these spaces? Sure. They are bad faith actors, and they are exceptions. Anecdotally, cis, hetero, butch women now report more harassment in bathrooms since the rise of anti-trans hate than they faced before.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > clean separation of single-sex spaces, and are mostly unnecessary Sexual assaults are vastly more often committed by males than females, and vastly more often on females and children. Until you replace single-sex spaces with something equally easy and effective you can't claim they aren't needed. > single-sex spaces are problematic AF Sexual attacks are problematic AF, single-sex spaces are the best way (cost vs effectiveness) we've come up with to prevent them. What other single, easily inspectable, and enforceable rule would you replace it with? If you have only one bit of data to predict someone's sexual criminality you'd want to know their sex. If you have only one bit of data to predict someone's likelihood of being sexually attacked you'd want to know their sex. We know this from thousands of years of human history and from simply thinking about the male biological imperative versus the female. > They were never as black-and-white-biology-based There's no biology more black and white than male vs female, birth giver vs impregnator. > What about intersex individuals? Despite all the chromosome combinations and mobile genes there are only two gametes, sperm and egg. All intersex people are male or female. DSDs are disorders of sexual development, not whole new sexes. > What about gay or lesbian individuals? What about masculine-presenting individuals? They use the washroom that matches their sex. > Anecdotally, [...] butch women now report more harassment in bathrooms Yeah, since males started trying to use female spaces people have been on guard. Not only is their suffering not yours to use for emotional weight but you are part of the group which caused this. > Women should feel comfortable in [rape counseling] without men present. Magnanimous, to give them that. How about prisons? > But those women also need to understand that even if trans people didn't exist, they need to share that space [...] lesbians Do you feel that straight women weren't sharing with lesbians and that lesbians needed you, a male, to point this out? > Adding transgender women to the list does not meaningfully destroy the validity of these spaces As soon as a single male enters a female space it stops being a single-sex space. > or ruin them for CIS women. It destroys the value for all females. > Are there men attempting to infiltrate these spaces? Sure. They are bad faith actors, Bad faith rapists, go figure. Is there a test that want us to perform to tell one of them from a justified male? > and they are exceptions. They're likely vastly more common than males who think they have gender dysphoria. > as the hateful anti-trans bigots claim they are today. How does a woman earn the right to declare herself different and politically distinct from you, and deserving of physical separation, without you calling her hateful?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

> our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED. There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender). Some things are pointlessly gendered, like pink/blue, or puffy sleeves, but others absolutely have a purpose, like single-sex spaces. > Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender. The problem is that trying to tear down GENDER norms by living as the other SEX. You're interfering with other people's spaces to culture-jam the patriarchy and they need those spaces for safety, but you're also conflating the stereotypes of a sex with the sex itself. > we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Most or all of that evidence is as flawed as the detransitioners study. Everyone is afraid to do any actual research in this area. That said there's ample evidence in every other area of mental health that says you should not affirm falsehood. > Why deny them this? They're denied nothing up until their gender presentation interferes with someone else's sex-based rights. Dress how you will, live how you will.

deanCommie 4y ago
single-sex spaces are problematic AF. What about intersex individuals? What about gay or lesbian individuals? What about masculine-presenting individuals? All have always challenged the clean separation of single-sex spaces, and are mostly unnecessary. To put an example, I agree that there should be rape counselling that are exclusive for women. Women should feel comfortable in that space without men present. But those women also need to understand that even if trans people didn't exist, they need to share that space with 1) non-femme presenting women, 2) non-straight women, 3) intersex individuals. Adding transgender women to the list does not meaningfully destroy the validity of these spaces or ruin them for CIS women. They were never as black-and-white-biology-based as the hateful anti-trans bigots claim they are today. Are there men attempting to infiltrate these spaces? Sure. They are bad faith actors, and they are exceptions. Anecdotally, cis, hetero, butch women now report more harassment in bathrooms since the rise of anti-trans hate than they faced before.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > clean separation of single-sex spaces, and are mostly unnecessary Sexual assaults are vastly more often committed by males than females, and vastly more often on females and children. Until you replace single-sex spaces with something equally easy and effective you can't claim they aren't needed. > single-sex spaces are problematic AF Sexual attacks are problematic AF, single-sex spaces are the best way (cost vs effectiveness) we've come up with to prevent them. What other single, easily inspectable, and enforceable rule would you replace it with? If you have only one bit of data to predict someone's sexual criminality you'd want to know their sex. If you have only one bit of data to predict someone's likelihood of being sexually attacked you'd want to know their sex. We know this from thousands of years of human history and from simply thinking about the male biological imperative versus the female. > They were never as black-and-white-biology-based There's no biology more black and white than male vs female, birth giver vs impregnator. > What about intersex individuals? Despite all the chromosome combinations and mobile genes there are only two gametes, sperm and egg. All intersex people are male or female. DSDs are disorders of sexual development, not whole new sexes. > What about gay or lesbian individuals? What about masculine-presenting individuals? They use the washroom that matches their sex. > Anecdotally, [...] butch women now report more harassment in bathrooms Yeah, since males started trying to use female spaces people have been on guard. Not only is their suffering not yours to use for emotional weight but you are part of the group which caused this. > Women should feel comfortable in [rape counseling] without men present. Magnanimous, to give them that. How about prisons? > But those women also need to understand that even if trans people didn't exist, they need to share that space [...] lesbians Do you feel that straight women weren't sharing with lesbians and that lesbians needed you, a male, to point this out? > Adding transgender women to the list does not meaningfully destroy the validity of these spaces As soon as a single male enters a female space it stops being a single-sex space. > or ruin them for CIS women. It destroys the value for all females. > Are there men attempting to infiltrate these spaces? Sure. They are bad faith actors, Bad faith rapists, go figure. Is there a test that want us to perform to tell one of them from a justified male? > and they are exceptions. They're likely vastly more common than males who think they have gender dysphoria. > as the hateful anti-trans bigots claim they are today. How does a woman earn the right to declare herself different and politically distinct from you, and deserving of physical separation, without you calling her hateful?