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This is programmable money where the government controls how and when you can spend it. It does not take long for most people to figure out how this restricts t

This is programmable money where the government controls how and when you can spend it. It does not take long for most people to figure out how this restricts their freedom. I guess they will make it a bargain in some way such as charging a higher rate for cash as they are doing here. This may be a training ground for other governments to learn how to force or incentivize us to use their CBDC's.

walterbell 4y ago
Programmable money is like programmable computation, there are infinite applications on the spectrum of good and evil. If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors (e.g. citystate crypto, nationstate crypto, non-CB crypto) and incumbent payments like cash. https://cashessentials.org/us-considers-legislation-on-mandatory-acceptance-of-cash/ https://cashessentials.org/us-considers-legislation-on-manda... > The Payment Choice Act is a bill that would require applicable retail businesses to accept cash for transactions of less than $2,000 and prohibit them from charging cash-paying customers a higher price relative to customers not paying with cash. Retail businesses would retain the flexibility to accept payments through any other means. The House Financial Services Committee passed the bill 32-17 on 18 May 2022. Previous CBDC threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30634245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30634245 (2022) & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27805709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27805709 (2021) A 15m video titled "Johnny's Cash and The Smart Money Nightmare" simulates future TV news on CBDCs. It's regularly deleted, and mirrored.
- akira2501 4y ago
  > there are infinite applications on the spectrum of good and evil. Which means it should be firmly in the hands of the people and never in those of a centralized government, in particular, never one which collects taxes directly from the people. > If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors (e.g. citystate crypto, nationstate crypto, non-CB crypto) and incumbent payments like cash. Well.. precisely. At this point, though.. what incentive to the population is there for a central government "programmable" token of value?
  - starbugs 4y ago
    > Well.. precisely. At this point, though.. what incentive to the population is there for a central government "programmable" token of value? None
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nicbou 4y ago
      Effective taxation in a country that's suffering heavily from tax evasion. Fighting fraud more effectively. I can't think of any other pleasant idea. It all boils down to applied surveillance.
      - starbugs 4y ago
        > Effective taxation in a country that's suffering heavily from tax evasion That can be done with a simple receipt. No need to 'invest' tax payer money into a complex CBDC system.
      - hakfoo 4y ago
        Two other thoughts: * Logistics: if you have poor infrastructure and remote communities, you eventually have to send armoured trucks full of notes and coins to replenish those lost to attrition or external trade. It seems a bit easier and less risky just to let people query the central bank from a satellite-based hotspot. * Universal access: Modern payment systems tend to be for the (relatively) well-off. Commercial banks aren't going to be interested in handing out debit cards and maintaining accounts for people with an average balance of only a few dollar-equivalents. A state program can afford to operate at a loss (and may actually deliver cost savings if it can be used as a cheap way to disburse subsidy or welfare payments)
  - walterbell 4y ago
    > what incentive to the population Historical incentives have often been closer to stick than carrot. One scenario could be a change in the definition of legal tender, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOuiWIID2vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOuiWIID2vo. If there is sufficient awareness voiced by the general population, elected representatives could have the political capital to push back against those lobbying for new powers in a post-CBDC economy.
- totetsu 4y ago
  I am reminded of an episode of the 1995 TV show sliders, where people can withdraw unlimited cash from ATMs but it puts them in the draw for population control measures. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0702744/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0702744/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_...
- contravariant 4y ago
  The only use I can imagine for programmable money is restrictions in the allowed transactions, or alternatively increase surveillance. I can't see any non-authoritarian uses for it. Are there any good uses don't require a benevolent dictator?
  - YinLuck- 4y ago
- hoseja 4y ago
  You are like a somatic cell to states. Your well-being isn't a concern, only your usefulness.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  > If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors The 'must' in the second part is more of something that you'd like governments to do, but not something that they in any way 'have' to do. I see vanishingly small chance of any government ever doing so because it would defeat the entire purpose of the central in CBDC.
zhte415 4y ago
I was surprised at charging a higher rate for cash, until reading the article where it didn't mention that. What was mentioned was a service fee for withdrawing cash above the limits from bank branches. Which also seemed surprising - to reduce the demand for cash-cash, restrict the supply. That that article mentions 85% of cash in circulation is held outside banks does not also seem alarming, it'd be interesting to read more about money velocity and other non-cash-cash outside the CBDC like non-CB Digital Wallets.
- hyperman1 4y ago
  - wasmitnetzen 4y ago
    Sweden's banks had a joint ATM system[1] since ~2010, I admittedly have no idea about the situation on the countryside, but at least in Stockholm, they're in ample supply seeing that it is extremely rare that someone pays with cash. I once had to get about 15000SEK (~1500€) in cash, and that wasn't a problem at all. [1]: https://www.bankomat.se/ https://www.bankomat.se/
    - zhte415 4y ago
      It's an interesting 'problem'. Handling cash has a cost. I don't know how batopin handles it, but it's, for example, around 1/5 the cost, largely logistical, to fill a machine with 50s instead of 10s. Where ATM network withdrawals carry no fee, there's no brand loyalty for where to get your cash, so where's the incentive to carry lower denomination notes? CBs have employed various methods to keep lower value notes in circulation such as X number of 10s per X number of 50s - perhaps a central 'cashless' push will be in these lower denominations, but that's purely speculation on my part. Interesting to see And it is what we all fall back on when the technology fails us. In other words, cash has far from lost its age-old reason for being! in the waffle. That's also my understanding - that cash becomes extremely valuable in times of acute crisis (like a zombie apocalypse) because it has all the characteristics (divisible, recognised, sufficiently rare, durable and easy to carry, easier to 'barter' than a can of beans, etc) of... money.
influxmoment 4y ago
I think it'll take a government like China or North Korea with no inhibitions to fully utilize the potential of this technology
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  And the rest (USA, EU) will follow, with a lot of propaganda saying that it's a good thing.
irjustin 4y ago
China was the leader in the push to pure cashless society. Cash still works, but only in small amounts. Lots of HNews'ers claim cash is the only way to keep your freedoms, but that simply glosses over the fact that even if you have piles of cash under your bed, you can't do anything meaningful if the government decides to prevent/limit banks from accepting cash deposits - say in a 5 year timeframe. After a while, businesses will simply stop accepting cash.
- jjgreen 4y ago
  I don't hear people saying cash protects freedom, but is does protect privacy. Can it be taken away, yes of course, if people don't care about privacy (and most don't) and don't use it then it can, and that seems to be a project in progress.
  - nix23 4y ago
    >freedom, but is does protect privacy Those are overlapping themes...and you can add safety in to mix.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    Since the lockdowns and people being barred from shopping etc there have definitely been people saying cash protects freedom. Privacy is a type of freedom anyway.
  - _milgram224 4y ago
    This is exactly correct, and also exactly why blockchain-based cryptocurrency has utterly failed to deliver on its promises to bring freedom from the tyrannies of fiat currency. In fact, the technology has been pivotal in ushering in this CBDC madness. Returning to the gold standard was always the best solution available, and we just ignored it to our own peril. It preserves both privacy and universal acceptability, which provides the user far more freedom than any other available alternative.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
hotcoffeebear 4y ago
Article’s title is clickbait; It’s an anti money laundering measure in general not directly to push CBDC.
- oifjsidjf 4y ago
  You serious?
  - hotcoffeebear 4y ago
    “Customers should be encouraged to use alternative channels (Internet banking, mobile banking apps, USSD, cards/POS, eNaira, etc.) to conduct their banking transactions.” Yes, i’m serious. I don’t see anything directed to use strictly CBDC here. They seem like to tackle tax evasion for business and individuals (read it like: traceable) In many countries there are limits on what you can do with cash already.
    - LocalH 4y ago
      If cash did not already exist, the authorities would never allow it to be created and used in today's world.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lzaaz 4y ago
  - elforce002 4y ago
    This is not that far fetched tbh.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      I think what many societies have discovered in the past few years is, if a proposed authoritarian policy only (or just disproportionately) hurts "the other side", then half the country will abandon any principles they used to have so they can claim that it's actually a good policy to implement.

walterbell 4y ago

Programmable money is like programmable computation, there are infinite applications on the spectrum of good and evil. If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors (e.g. citystate crypto, nationstate crypto, non-CB crypto) and incumbent payments like cash. https://cashessentials.org/us-considers-legislation-on-mandatory-acceptance-of-cash/ https://cashessentials.org/us-considers-legislation-on-manda... > The Payment Choice Act is a bill that would require applicable retail businesses to accept cash for transactions of less than $2,000 and prohibit them from charging cash-paying customers a higher price relative to customers not paying with cash. Retail businesses would retain the flexibility to accept payments through any other means. The House Financial Services Committee passed the bill 32-17 on 18 May 2022. Previous CBDC threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30634245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30634245 (2022) & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27805709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27805709 (2021) A 15m video titled "Johnny's Cash and The Smart Money Nightmare" simulates future TV news on CBDCs. It's regularly deleted, and mirrored.

akira2501 4y ago
> there are infinite applications on the spectrum of good and evil. Which means it should be firmly in the hands of the people and never in those of a centralized government, in particular, never one which collects taxes directly from the people. > If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors (e.g. citystate crypto, nationstate crypto, non-CB crypto) and incumbent payments like cash. Well.. precisely. At this point, though.. what incentive to the population is there for a central government "programmable" token of value?
- starbugs 4y ago
  > Well.. precisely. At this point, though.. what incentive to the population is there for a central government "programmable" token of value? None
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Effective taxation in a country that's suffering heavily from tax evasion. Fighting fraud more effectively. I can't think of any other pleasant idea. It all boils down to applied surveillance.
    - starbugs 4y ago
      > Effective taxation in a country that's suffering heavily from tax evasion That can be done with a simple receipt. No need to 'invest' tax payer money into a complex CBDC system.
    - hakfoo 4y ago
      Two other thoughts: * Logistics: if you have poor infrastructure and remote communities, you eventually have to send armoured trucks full of notes and coins to replenish those lost to attrition or external trade. It seems a bit easier and less risky just to let people query the central bank from a satellite-based hotspot. * Universal access: Modern payment systems tend to be for the (relatively) well-off. Commercial banks aren't going to be interested in handing out debit cards and maintaining accounts for people with an average balance of only a few dollar-equivalents. A state program can afford to operate at a loss (and may actually deliver cost savings if it can be used as a cheap way to disburse subsidy or welfare payments)
- walterbell 4y ago
  > what incentive to the population Historical incentives have often been closer to stick than carrot. One scenario could be a change in the definition of legal tender, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOuiWIID2vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOuiWIID2vo. If there is sufficient awareness voiced by the general population, elected representatives could have the political capital to push back against those lobbying for new powers in a post-CBDC economy.
totetsu 4y ago
I am reminded of an episode of the 1995 TV show sliders, where people can withdraw unlimited cash from ATMs but it puts them in the draw for population control measures. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0702744/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0702744/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_...
contravariant 4y ago
The only use I can imagine for programmable money is restrictions in the allowed transactions, or alternatively increase surveillance. I can't see any non-authoritarian uses for it. Are there any good uses don't require a benevolent dictator?
- YinLuck- 4y ago
hoseja 4y ago
You are like a somatic cell to states. Your well-being isn't a concern, only your usefulness.
Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
> If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors The 'must' in the second part is more of something that you'd like governments to do, but not something that they in any way 'have' to do. I see vanishingly small chance of any government ever doing so because it would defeat the entire purpose of the central in CBDC.

zhte415 4y ago

I was surprised at charging a higher rate for cash, until reading the article where it didn't mention that. What was mentioned was a service fee for withdrawing cash above the limits from bank branches. Which also seemed surprising - to reduce the demand for cash-cash, restrict the supply. That that article mentions 85% of cash in circulation is held outside banks does not also seem alarming, it'd be interesting to read more about money velocity and other non-cash-cash outside the CBDC like non-CB Digital Wallets.

hyperman1 4y ago
- wasmitnetzen 4y ago
  Sweden's banks had a joint ATM system[1] since ~2010, I admittedly have no idea about the situation on the countryside, but at least in Stockholm, they're in ample supply seeing that it is extremely rare that someone pays with cash. I once had to get about 15000SEK (~1500€) in cash, and that wasn't a problem at all. [1]: https://www.bankomat.se/ https://www.bankomat.se/
  - zhte415 4y ago
    It's an interesting 'problem'. Handling cash has a cost. I don't know how batopin handles it, but it's, for example, around 1/5 the cost, largely logistical, to fill a machine with 50s instead of 10s. Where ATM network withdrawals carry no fee, there's no brand loyalty for where to get your cash, so where's the incentive to carry lower denomination notes? CBs have employed various methods to keep lower value notes in circulation such as X number of 10s per X number of 50s - perhaps a central 'cashless' push will be in these lower denominations, but that's purely speculation on my part. Interesting to see And it is what we all fall back on when the technology fails us. In other words, cash has far from lost its age-old reason for being! in the waffle. That's also my understanding - that cash becomes extremely valuable in times of acute crisis (like a zombie apocalypse) because it has all the characteristics (divisible, recognised, sufficiently rare, durable and easy to carry, easier to 'barter' than a can of beans, etc) of... money.

influxmoment 4y ago

I think it'll take a government like China or North Korea with no inhibitions to fully utilize the potential of this technology

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
And the rest (USA, EU) will follow, with a lot of propaganda saying that it's a good thing.

irjustin 4y ago

China was the leader in the push to pure cashless society. Cash still works, but only in small amounts. Lots of HNews'ers claim cash is the only way to keep your freedoms, but that simply glosses over the fact that even if you have piles of cash under your bed, you can't do anything meaningful if the government decides to prevent/limit banks from accepting cash deposits - say in a 5 year timeframe. After a while, businesses will simply stop accepting cash.

jjgreen 4y ago
I don't hear people saying cash protects freedom, but is does protect privacy. Can it be taken away, yes of course, if people don't care about privacy (and most don't) and don't use it then it can, and that seems to be a project in progress.
- nix23 4y ago
  >freedom, but is does protect privacy Those are overlapping themes...and you can add safety in to mix.
- brigandish 4y ago
  Since the lockdowns and people being barred from shopping etc there have definitely been people saying cash protects freedom. Privacy is a type of freedom anyway.
- _milgram224 4y ago
  This is exactly correct, and also exactly why blockchain-based cryptocurrency has utterly failed to deliver on its promises to bring freedom from the tyrannies of fiat currency. In fact, the technology has been pivotal in ushering in this CBDC madness. Returning to the gold standard was always the best solution available, and we just ignored it to our own peril. It preserves both privacy and universal acceptability, which provides the user far more freedom than any other available alternative.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago

hotcoffeebear 4y ago

Article’s title is clickbait; It’s an anti money laundering measure in general not directly to push CBDC.

oifjsidjf 4y ago
You serious?
- hotcoffeebear 4y ago
  “Customers should be encouraged to use alternative channels (Internet banking, mobile banking apps, USSD, cards/POS, eNaira, etc.) to conduct their banking transactions.” Yes, i’m serious. I don’t see anything directed to use strictly CBDC here. They seem like to tackle tax evasion for business and individuals (read it like: traceable) In many countries there are limits on what you can do with cash already.
  - LocalH 4y ago
    If cash did not already exist, the authorities would never allow it to be created and used in today's world.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lzaaz 4y ago
- elforce002 4y ago
  This is not that far fetched tbh.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    I think what many societies have discovered in the past few years is, if a proposed authoritarian policy only (or just disproportionately) hurts "the other side", then half the country will abandon any principles they used to have so they can claim that it's actually a good policy to implement.